Lati@s Suspect Test Discussion

[Pokedra]

*image removed*

Overview

Latias (without Soul Dew) has been unbanned by Smogon, and since PokeCommunity follows their tier system, she is unbanned here as well.

After Latios is tested (see below), Latias will be tested with Soul Dew unbanned.

Information

Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 80
Def: 90
Spd: 110
SAtk: 110
SDef: 130

Weaknesses

- Bug (2x)
- Dark (2x)
- Dragon (2x)
- Ghost (2x)
- Ice (2x)

Resistances

- Electric
- Fighting
- Fire
- Grass
- Psychic
- Water

Immunities

- Ground (due to Levitate)

Movepool

Latias has a fairly diverse movepool, and the best options will be listed here. Since there is a section on Latios and their movepools are similar, moves that are exclusive to Latias will be bolded.

Notable Attack Moves

- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

Notable Defensive/Support Moves

- Calm Mind
- Light Screen
- Protect
- Psycho Shift
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Reflect
- Roar
- Roost
- Safeguard
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
- Wish

Movesets

Name: Defensive Calm Mind
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Dragon Pulse/Psychic/Surf
-Substitute
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Evs: 128 HP / 128 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Very simple, throw up a Sub to guard against status problems then proceed to Calm Mind. Once the Sub is broken throw up another Sub again. If HP is low then Recover and get around 4-6 CM's then proceed to sweep with your sweeping move.

Latias can beat Blissey usually and can 2HKO the 148HP/0 SpD Bold Blissey which is still common. Remember you can use Modest nature and pump more SpAtk EV's to do more to Blissey at the expense of Spe and HP.
Here's some damage calculations to what I think Smogon will call counters.
These are with Timid nature and with 6 Calm Minds.

Dragon Pulse against 252HP/176 SpD Calm Blissey - 40.76% - 47.90%
Dragon Pulse against 0HP/216 SpD Calm Blissey - 43.47% - 51.15%
Dragon Pulse against 148HP/0 SpD Bold Blissey - 53.05% - 62.50%
Surf against 252HP/92 SpD Sassy Bronzong - 72.78% - 85.50%
Dragon Pulse against 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax - 65.01% - 76.54%


Name: Choice Specs
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Ice Beam/HP Fire/HP Fighting
-Thunderbolt/HP Fire/HP Fighting
Item: Choice Specs
Nature: Timid/Modest
Evs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Latias is an powerful threat wth Choice Spec having massive coverage. Draco Meteor leaves dents in walls like Blissey and Snorlax. Surf is for Heatran, Bronzong, Tyranitar and Infernape. The rest is up to you, Boltbeam will give you at least a neutral hit on everything in the enitre game!

Here are some damage calculations for counters and top-OU threats to prove that Latias will be a threat.

Draco Meteor against 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax - 46.52% - 54.67%
Draco Meteor against 4HP/0 SpD Adamant Snorlax - 67.32% - 79.22%
Ice Beam against 236HP/116 SpD Adamant Salamence - 165.64% - 194.87%
Surf against 248 HP/204 SpD Modest Heatran - 63.12% - 74.29%

Name: Special Wall
-Dragon Pulse/Psychic
-Thunder Wave/Roar
-Reflect
-Recover
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid/Modest
Evs: 252 HP/86 Def/140 SpD/28 Spe
Latias won't be as good as Blissey at special walling but it is a fair wall. This Latias is still faster then Scizor and Metagross and can throw up a Reflect to stop their immense attacks from denting Latias heavily. Roar is to pseudo-Haze away Pokemon who like to pad up their own stats. Recover is to recover HP when you need it. Dragon Pulse or Psychic is incase you need to attack.

With Reflect up, Scizors fails to 3HKO with Swords Dance Bullet Punch. Metagross fails to 2HKO with Meteor Mash and Snorlax falls to 2hKO with Crunch.

Damage Calculations against Latias with Reflect up:
Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Metagross with Meteor Mash - 38.19% - 44.78%
Adamant Life Orb-Swords Dance 252 Atk Scizor with Bullet Punch - 25.82% - 30.49%
Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Snorlax with Crunch - 35.16% - 41.48%
Counters


*image removed*
~Blissey~
Blissey is an obvious choice for a counter against Latias as she nearly always a special attackers however Latias could beat her with the Defensive Calm Mind set. Latias can throw up a Sub to protect against Toxic/Thunder Wave and then proceed to use Calm Mind and Recover when it needs to. With 6 CM's it can 2HKO most Blissey. However Blissey with Seismic Toss will win against Latias hwoever BoltBeam Blissey will probably not.

*image removed*
~Snorlax~
Nice SpD and excellent HP and Crunch. Perfect counter? Well no, Snorlax can take hits from Latias and CB Snorlax can OHKO with Crunch but its not all good. If SR is up the CB Snorlax will take around 80-90% from Draco Meteor and SR just by switching in. The standard 168HP/220 SpD Careful Snorlax has a better chance taking 60-70% from SR and Draco Meteor. He isn't too good a counter but he totally destroys the Defensive Calm Mind since it needs a few Calm Mind's to hurt him while he uses Crunch for a 2HKO.


*image removed*

Overview

Latios, on the other hand, has not been banned, but Smogon is currently testing it without Soul Dew as their latest suspect. Since it is very similar to Latias, it will also be in the discussion.

Information

Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 90
Def: 80
Spd: 110
SAtk: 130
SDef: 110

NOTE: The following information regarding weaknesses, resistances, and immunities is the same as the information listed for Latias, so if you have already read that, there is no need to read this.

Weaknesses

- Bug (2x)
- Dark (2x)
- Dragon (2x)
- Ghost (2x)
- Ice (2x)

Resistances

- Electric (2x)
- Fighting (2x)
- Fire (2x)
- Grass (2x)
- Psychic (2x)
- Water (2x)

Immunities

- Ground (due to Levitate)

Movepool

Like Latias, Latios has a wide movepool. It learns mostly the same moves as Latias, but there are some notable differences. Like with Latias, any bolded moves are those that Latios can learn, but not its twin partner.

Notable Attack Moves

- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Pulse
- Earthquake
- Energy Ball
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

Notable Defensive/Support Moves

- Calm Mind
- Light Screen
- Protect
- Psycho Shift
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Reflect
- Roar
- Roost
- Safeguard
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave

Counters

Coming soon!

They are mostly the same as Latias's counters, but Latios packs more power and the threat of Dragon Dance. If Latios is downgraded counters will be done by me and Anti.

 

[Anti]

Latios will be added to the first post eventually as it is the latest suspect, and is the a very similar Pokemon. Also, more movesets will be added in since we probably should have more than a defensive Calm Mind set if we want to discuss how threatening it is. Good thread though. Everything will be added to the first post since it is fairly incomplete right now. There is a thread about Latias here that will be helpful.

The main problems Latios faces are Steel-types and Tyranitar. It always needs a boosted Hidden Power Fire to hit Metagross, Scizor, Skarmory (though it takes a ton from Dragon Pulse already), and the rest of the gang. Heatran is really only threatened by HP Ground/Fighting or Surf. Tyranitar is the real problem, since Surf has to basically be coming from a Choice Specs Latias or it won't even 2HKO standard 176 HP/0 SDef Tyranitar. Of course, Pursuit will deal with Latias.

Also, with the defensive CM set, Latias will likely be stuck at low HP without a Substitute (unless you're playing against a no Seismic Toss Blissey, and they aren't exactly uncommon). With Seismic Toss, and can weaken Latias enough to force it to Recover without protection, and Blissey can hit it with status.

I'm largely okay with the downgrade, but I've hardly played against it at all, so that could definitely change. Offensively though, it is definitely counterable (though still threatening, for sure). Its list of weaknesses might be its greatest downfall so far, I don't know.

EDIT: I revamped the first post to make it a discussion thread rather than one person's opinion in the first post. Thanks for the start, Pokedra! Now we can discuss this.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

For me they have to stay uber, I have played a lot in the Suspect Ladder, and I absolutely have to say that the metagame is worsened a lot of, all the teams in that ladders were composed from Tyranitar + Blissey + 2 Latias Counter + 2 Pokémon random, therefore not really the maximum one...

 

[Aurafire]

I never thought that Latias would be game-breaking if it got moved down to OU. Without soul dew, I still consider it just an "above average" OU pokemon. The CM set is easily walled, and it doesn't really have any other amazingly threatening options. That being said, I threw it on one of my shoddy teams to see for myself what it can do. I'm still not expecting much though...

Latios is kind of a different story since it has a significantly higher special attack stat, but again, it's easily walled by Blissey and steels. I'm thoroughly expecting Latios to get the downgrade as well. Honestly, they both wouldn't be coming down to OUs if they were going to be too much to handle.

 

[.]

The reason Latias was Uber is Soul Dew. The Special Defense and Attack (moreso the former) makes it able to take hits from the most terrifying threats and hit back hard. Latias works nicely in OU, having quite a decent sized amount of counters. Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor, and even Heracross are all offensive threats that can beat the Calm Mind set, assuming it runs the standard Surf / Dragon Pulse / Recover / CM. Latias requires HP Fire to kill Scizor in one hit, and to prevent it from OHKOing with U-Turn / X-Scissor. Latias is always doomed against Tyranitar, as CB Crunch OHKOs and CB Pursuit kills it if it switches out. Furthermore, +1 LO Surf does a maximum of 67% to Max HP Tyranitar, never an OHKO even with Stealth Rock support. Metagross is in an even better situation; taking 60% maximum from Surf, and dealing 100.33% minimum to 6 HP / 0 Def specimens of Latias. Heracross can live even a boosted Dragon Pulse with HP EVs, or can come in on the Calm Mind, and OHKO it with Megahorn easily.

Aside from offensive monster, Snorlax and Blissey handle Latias relatively well. Choice Band Lax is the best Snorlax set to consider, as Crunch is an easy OHKO with Stealth Rock down. Blissey T-Waves / Toxics and alternates with Softboiled and Seismic Toss to bring it down. Latias is fine in OU.

Latios may prove to be different. Less bulk for more Special Attack isn't such a bad prospect considering lack of Soul Dew. We'll see how this turns out.

 

[Anti]

I stand corrected when I said it gets walled by steels to an extent...just look at these damage calculations:

All of this is a Modest max SAtk Choice Specs Latios:

Surf on 252 HP/0 SDef Metagross: 591 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (95 Base Power): 187 - 220 (51.37% - 60.44%) - guaranteed 2HKO with SR down or if it lacks Leftovers (almost always does since those are the CBer EVs)

HP Fire on 252 HP/92 SDef Bronzong: 591 Atk vs 320 Def & 338 HP (70 Base Power): 186 - 220 (55.03% - 65.09%)


...I could go on, but HP Fire and even Surf definitely take care of what they have to. This is what happens when half of my response is theorymon, lol.

Also, to show the power of Draco Meteor, here is the same Specs 394 SAtk Latios on 362 HP/216 SDef Metagross:

591 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (140 Base Power): 205 - 242 (56.32% - 66.48%)

It still isn't really switching in for free since it's getting mauled by Draco Meteor. ScarfTran runs into similar troubles, as it lacks Leftovers recovery and doesn't resist SR.

That being said, you do have to predict right or Latios is walled, as is true with all users of Choice Specs. However, I think that Soul Dew could cause them to gain a huge upgrade since they can throw in a recovery move if they want while retaining awesome power and great special defense...

...But that's just me theorymoning. Still, Latios has such huge power than it can still do heavy damage many Steel-types. Even Latias is a big threat. It has to predict spot-on and basically will have to run Choice Specs, but they CAN get past Steels if they really want to.

But it should also be noted that those calculations are with a Modest Latios, which probably won't be used so Latios can outspeed stuff like Jolly/Naive Salamence and tie with Gengar.

Either way, Latios can certainly get by Steel-types if it wants to. However, using HP Fire is basically begging Tyranitar to come in and punish it. Scizor and Weavile won't have such luck though.

If anything, I think what might hurt the Lati@s is lack of physical defense and their fairly long list of weaknesses. They do make perfect Mixape counters though.

Just some stuff to consider. I haven't watched or played enough battles to form any kind of opinion on the matter it seems, lol.

 

[.]

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Careful
252 HP / 82 Atk / 176 SpD
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Tail / Earthquake
-Pursuit

538 Atk vs 308 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 152 - 180 (37.62% - 44.55%)

Basically, a Choice Specs Latios's Surf doesn't guarantee a 2HKO without Stealth Rock, even then it's not guaranteed. Crunch guarantees an OHKO on the same Choice Specs Latios. This is a check, although the rare Grass Knot is more threatening.


Snorlax @ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 SpD / 6 HP
-Return
-Crunch / Fire Punch
-Earthquake
-Selfdestruct

538 Atk vs 319 Def & 461 HP (140 Base Power): 255 - 300 (55.31% - 65.08%)

That's Draco Meteor the first time. The second one does:

268 Atk vs 319 Def & 461 HP (140 Base Power): 127 - 150 (27.55% - 32.54%)

Not a 2HKO, whereas CB Crunch does:

525 Atk vs 196 Def & 302 HP (80 Base Power): 308 - 364 (101.99% - 120.53%)

OHKOs 100% of the time. Pursuit can be used, but Crunch is pretty much needed to kill Latios if he wants to be smart and stay in.

 

[Anti]

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Careful
252 HP / 82 Atk / 176 SpD
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Tail / Earthquake
-Pursuit

538 Atk vs 308 Def & 404 HP (90 Base Power): 152 - 180 (37.62% - 44.55%)

Basically, a Choice Specs Latios's Surf doesn't guarantee a 2HKO without Stealth Rock, even then it's not guaranteed. Crunch guarantees an OHKO on the same Choice Specs Latios. This is a check, although the rare Grass Knot is more threatening.

How is this even relevant? 82% of Tyranitars used don't even run ANY special defense EVs, and 42% don't have HP EVs. Careful Nature is super rare as well (the "other" nature category for Tyranitar is >6.7%). Yeah, it's technically a counter, but it's very rare and generally not as effective as standard CBTar (seriously, getting outsped by Vaporeon is terrible).

On a standard CBtar, a Choice Specs Surf does this:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

...Which is a 2HKO regardless of SR or Leftovers. Even if it uses the "wrong" move in Draco Meteor, it still hammers CBtar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (140 Base Power): 229 - 270 (59.48% - 70.13%)

Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down (59% and 29% minimums for before and after the SAtk drop, respectively)

CBLax takes so much from Draco Meteor that it's essentially rendered useless as well. Also, there is a chance for a 2HKO there with Stealth Rock down (and don't forget the possibility of Snorlax having to face Sadnstorm damage or not being at full health - granted, this can be used for any counter mentioned, but CBLax needs all of its HP or it's going to die or be so horribly crushed that anything can come in and finish it off.

 

[.]

How is this even relevant? 82% of Tyranitars used don't even run ANY special defense EVs, and 42% don't have HP EVs. Careful Nature is super rare as well (the "other" nature category for Tyranitar is >6.7%). Yeah, it's technically a counter, but it's very rare and generally not as effective as standard CBTar (seriously, getting outsped by Vaporeon is terrible).

That spread is the standard CBTar used in Ubers, with 40 EVs moved to Attack. It's used to sponge Special hits. And if you admit it to be a counter, why would you even bash it? So what if it's rare. The point is it handles Latios more often than not, thus it should considered.

On a standard CBtar, a Choice Specs Surf does this:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

...Which is a 2HKO regardless of SR or Leftovers. Even if it uses the "wrong" move in Draco Meteor, it still hammers CBtar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (140 Base Power): 229 - 270 (59.48% - 70.13%)

Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down (59% and 29% minimums for before and after the SAtk drop, respectively)

Oh fantastic, but I don't care about the standard CBTar. I'm talking about the Specially Defensive CBTar, while it lacks the sheer destructive power of the standard CBTar, it takes hits better.

CBLax takes so much from Draco Meteor that it's essentially rendered useless as well. Also, there is a chance for a 2HKO there with Stealth Rock down (and don't forget the possibility of Snorlax having to face Sadnstorm damage or not being at full health - granted, this can be used for any counter mentioned, but CBLax needs all of its HP or it's going to die or be so horribly crushed that anything can come in and finish it off.

Umm...

Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD CB Lax: 60%-71%

It gets hammered even harder with Max HP and Min SpD. So you're point about running Max HP is invalid, unless you're trying to say something else and I'm not catching on.


Honestly, just because something is not common, doesn't mean it's not going to work. Those sets can be used to handle Lati@s in a pinch.

 

[Skip Shot]

(Jumping into the line of gunfire here...) SD Luke can make a good revenge killer. According to Metalkid's, +2 Crunch will easily OHKO (147-172%) a max HP Latios. Just don't think about switching in, because every move that Latios carries bar GK can hit Luke hard due to Luke's frailty. (DM and Psychic are 2HKOs iirc).

 

[.]

(Jumping into the line of gunfire here...) SD Luke can make a good revenge killer. According to Metalkid's, +2 Crunch will easily OHKO (147-172%) a max HP Latios. Just don't think about switching in, because every move that Latios carries bar GK can hit Luke hard due to Luke's frailty. (DM and Psychic are 2HKOs iirc).

Specs Surf 2HKOs it. Nevermind the fact that Lucario is outsped by the Lati twins.

 

[Anti]

That spread is the standard CBTar used in Ubers, with 40 EVs moved to Attack. It's used to sponge Special hits. And if you admit it to be a counter, why would you even bash it? So what if it's rare. The point is it handles Latios more often than not, thus it should considered.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, I'm saying that what a special defensive CBTar does to Latios pretty much has no effect on its effectiveness in the tier. Being walled by a certain common type of Pokemon like bulky waters or steels is.

Oh fantastic, but I don't care about the standard CBTar. I'm talking about the Specially Defensive CBTar, while it lacks the sheer destructive power of the standard CBTar, it takes hits better.

None of this "oh fantastic" stuff, alright?. Anyway, I know you don't care what Latios does to standard CBTar, but considering it is one of the most grave threats to Latios with its high special defense and access to Pursuit, it certainly is relevant. Actually, it's way more relevant than "specially defensive CBTar" since nobody uses it and it's outclassed by standard CBTar.

Umm...

Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD CB Lax: 60%-71%

It gets hammered even harder with Max HP and Min SpD. So you're point about running Max HP is invalid, unless you're trying to say something else and I'm not catching on.

Indeed, I meant that if Snorlax has taken prior damage it loses, not that it should be investing in HP.

Honestly, just because something is not common, doesn't mean it's not going to work. Those sets can be used to handle Lati@s in a pinch.

I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying that they don't matter in the big picture (the effectiveness of the Lati@s in the tier and how that relates to their tier status with and without Soul Dew). Defensive CBTar is a solid counter (though I certainly don't think CBLax is), and I know all you were doing was listing counters, but it's not nearly as good as normal CBTar is, and it being able to counter the Lati@s probably won't help it much. That's all I was saying.

 

[.]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, I'm saying that what a special defensive CBTar does to Latios pretty much has no effect on its effectiveness in the tier. Being walled by a certain common type of Pokemon like bulky waters or steels is.

I'm suggesting CB Tar to give people an example of what counters Lati@s. No harm in that, eh? Unless I'm mistaken, and we're not allowed to post counters.

Enough of this crap. I know you don't care what Latios does to standard CBTar, but considering it is one of the most grave threats to Latios with its high special defense and access to Pursuit, it certainly is relevant. Actually, it's way more relevant than "specially defensive CBTar" since nobody uses it. If you're looking for a Latios counter it is, but that's not the purpose of this thread, and sassing me for not conforming to what you think the focus should be isn't going to fly with me.

Getting angry at me isn't going to solve anything. So I'll disregard the first part of your post. I can understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to post is a counter to the standard Lati@s. I honestly don't see why you have to try and bash the moveset I'm reccomending. If it works, it works. I'm not expecting it to rise in usage, nor do I expect it to become a staple for countering Lati@s, but I am suggesting it to give people an idea of what counters Lati@s.

And if you absolutely MUST dispute this with me, please do it over PM. Otherwise this thread is going to get messy.

If you're going to start getting emotional/angry over a discussion I have nothing else to say but "Lol".

Indeed, I meant that if Snorlax has taken prior damage it loses, not that it should be investing in HP.

Okay

I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying that they don't matter in the big picture (the effectiveness of the Lati@s in the tier and how that relates to their tier status with and without Soul Dew). Defensive CBTar is a solid counter (though I certainly don't think CBLax is), and I know all you were doing was listing counters, but it's not nearly as good as normal CBTar is, and it being able to counter the Lati@s probably won't help it much. That's all I was saying.

And all I'm saying is that they do counter Lati@s (CBTar doing it better of course. I don't see the need to go and bash them for either "not being common enough" or "dying after it kills Lati@s".

 

[Anti]

I'm suggesting CB Tar to give people an example of what counters Lati@s. No harm in that, eh? Unless I'm mistaken, and we're not allowed to post counters.

We are, but CBLax is a shaky counter at best and the fact that Def. CBTar is almost completely outclassed by standard CBTar hardly makes it notable.

Getting angry at me isn't going to solve anything. So I'll disregard the first part of your post. I can understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to post is a counter to the standard Lati@s. I honestly don't see why you have to try and bash the moveset I'm reccomending. If it works, it works. I'm not expecting it to rise in usage, nor do I expect it to become a staple for countering Lati@s, but I am suggesting it to give people an idea of what counters Lati@s.

If you're going to start getting emotional/angry over a discussion I have nothing else to say but "Lol".

Expect a PM message soon since you clearly aren't willing to take that initiative.

Okay

And all I'm saying is that they do counter Lati@s (CBTar doing it better of course. I don't see the need to go and bash them for either "not being common enough" or "dying after it kills Lati@s".

There isn't any harm at all, I agree, and I never said there was. I was disagreeing with them being viable counters which is why I wasn't so hot about you posting them. The reason I brought up how common Def. CBTar is is because it illustrates my point for me - Standard CBTar outclasses it, which makes it a poor choice on teams.

It's kind of like why nobody used Choice Scarf Cresselia to counter YacheChomp (other than YacheChomp being way worse than advertised)...Choice Scarf Cresselia isn't good. You could list it in a "Counters" section, but it's really not notable since it's really only useful over other versions of Cresselia for that one use.

 

[.]

We are, but CBLax is a shaky counter at best and the fact that Def. CBTar is almost completely outclassed by standard CBTar hardly makes it notable.

So? Standard CBTar outclasses Special CBTar in terms of brute power, yes, and in terms of doing damage, yes, but Special CBTar handles Lati@s, which can be useful if your team is in need of a Lati@s check, as well as a hard hitter.

There isn't any harm at all, I agree, and I never said there was. I was disagreeing with them being viable counters which is why I wasn't so hot about you posting them. The reason I brought up how common Def. CBTar is is because it illustrates my point for me - Standard CBTar outclasses it, which makes it a poor choice on teams.

Read above.

It's kind of like why nobody used Choice Scarf Cresselia to counter YacheChomp (other than YacheChomp being way worse than advertised)...Choice Scarf Cresselia isn't good. You could list it in a "Counters" section, but it's really not notable since it's really only useful over other versions of Cresselia for that one use.

Choice Scarf Cresselia was sadly the victim of being labeled as an overcentralized counter. You could say the same about Special CBTar, but hey, if it works, it works. And I'm willing to use it if it works.

Expect a PM message soon since you clearly aren't willing to take that initiative.

Expect no response because there is nothing wrong with leaving this discussion in the open.

 

[Anti]

I'm not angry about our CBTar/Lax debate and I encourage it (as long as it remains on-topic and whatnot). The rest is being taken care of by PM so let's move on then.

And hey, Scarf Cresselia actually worked alright when I tested it for a short while (you know, before Plat changes and whatnot). Even if something works, if it is outclassed, why use it? I see your point, but Def. CBTar is an "Other Options" counter. I'm not disputing you bringing it up, since it is relevant in the sense that it counters Latios, but it isn't in the sense that Def. CBTar probably shouldn't be used and is turned into a "notable" counter but definitely not the ideal one. Especially since Surf and Draco Meteor still take off a ton of its health in the process and it can't recover off previously-taken damage.

As for CBLax, it's kind of like using a Ground-type that takes 90%-99% from Close Combat...it's technically a counter and even with SR damage it can survive the hit, but it HAS to be a full health switching in or it's almost certain to lose. Even if it doesn't, it is essentially a sacrifice (not to undermine how useful they can be) and is killed. I don't think CB Snorlax is even notable because of how shaky it is. that's why people don't say "yeah, Swampert is my SDLuke counter."

Again, I don't have a problem with you posting counters, I just don't like the ones you posted. Especially Snorlax, it needs a defensive set or it's toast.

 

[Archer]

People seem to be under the wrong impression about CBLax and CBTar.. Neither of the two are actually walls/as sturdy as they think, but can use their high SDef to switch in easily. Snorlax needs Max SDef/HP to take big hits even when it has access to ResTalk. It seems to be that when you're playing with heavy hitters, it's become 'standard' to rely on typing rather than pure stats.

I think the best way to deal with it is to cripple it with TWave/Body Slam and switch in Bulky Steels or whatever resists the type it's going to use. The fact is that it's in OU, now so this should be a "New Threat" Discussion, rather than a OU/Uber debate.

No-one can decide on the 'best' EV Spread for the bulky CMer, so I think that's worth looking into.
I'm thinking it needs 300/329 Spd to outspeed Salamence/Flygon and enough SAtk the OHKO Blissey at +6. Opinions?

 

[Pokedra]

The reason Latias was Uber is Soul Dew. The Special Defense and Attack (moreso the former) makes it able to take hits from the most terrifying threats and hit back hard. Latias works nicely in OU, having quite a decent sized amount of counters. Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor, and even Heracross are all offensive threats that can beat the Calm Mind set, assuming it runs the standard Surf / Dragon Pulse / Recover / CM. Latias requires HP Fire to kill Scizor in one hit, and to prevent it from OHKOing with U-Turn / X-Scissor. Latias is always doomed against Tyranitar, as CB Crunch OHKOs and CB Pursuit kills it if it switches out. Furthermore, +1 LO Surf does a maximum of 67% to Max HP Tyranitar, never an OHKO even with Stealth Rock support. Metagross is in an even better situation; taking 60% maximum from Surf, and dealing 100.33% minimum to 6 HP / 0 Def specimens of Latias. Heracross can live even a boosted Dragon Pulse with HP EVs, or can come in on the Calm Mind, and OHKO it with Megahorn easily.

Aside from offensive monster, Snorlax and Blissey handle Latias relatively well. Choice Band Lax is the best Snorlax set to consider, as Crunch is an easy OHKO with Stealth Rock down. Blissey T-Waves / Toxics and alternates with Softboiled and Seismic Toss to bring it down. Latias is fine in OU.

Latios may prove to be different. Less bulk for more Special Attack isn't such a bad prospect considering lack of Soul Dew. We'll see how this turns out.

Note : This is for the Smogon Choice Specs set :
Heracross doesn't count as a counter. It usually gets 2HKO by Dragon Pulse with HP EV's and Latias is faster then it so unless it is a Choice Scarf variant it will usually be slower and also Choice Scarf variants don't invest EV's in HP so Heracross is probably not a counter.

Blissey and Snorlax do handle Latias pretty well but there are still ways for her to beat them.

Latias will be threat in OU even without Soul Dew. Sure Blissey and Snorlax can wall it to an extent but it still has huge coverage and 110 Spe, 110 SpAtk and 130 Spd.

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P

 

[Dark Azelf]

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.

Define "better". They both do different jobs so really cannot be compared.

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk.

But Togekiss gets Hustle which kinda

Pokémon with this ability do 50% more damage with physical attacks

.....does this o_0


There is little to no reason to use physical Lati@s EVER, pretty much every OU physical oriented Dragon outclasses it (bar like Trick?). So until Salamence and friends either die or becomes uber, please prove me wrong.


In regards to Heracross, i believe the one he was referring to was/is indeed scarfed.


Anyways i keep seeing the word "counter", as said by Tangerine on smogon "You should be trying to get over this countering mentality". Its an extremely outdated view on how to go about discussing things and really doesnt work well in D/P/P. Sure if you can counter stuff go ahead (and Lati@s DOES have counters), no one is stopping you and it still works in some cases. However, checks and revenge killers are MUCH more efficient this gen/metagame, fact.


EDIT : And no, im not back posting in s+m for good yet, and yes i still feel bad.

 

[Pokedra]

Define "better". They both do different jobs so really cannot be compared.



But Togekiss gets Hustle which kinda

.....does this o_0


There is little to no reason to use physical Lati@s EVER, pretty much every OU physical oriented Dragon outclasses it (bar like Trick?). So until Salamence and friends either die or becomes uber, please prove me wrong.

In regards to Heracross, i believe the one he was referring to was/is indeed scarfed.

Anyways i keep seeing the word "counter", as said by Tangerine on smogon "You should be trying to get over this countering mentality". Its an extremely outdated view on how to go about discussing things and really doesnt work well in D/P/P. Sure if you can counter stuff go ahead (and Lati@s DOES have counters), no one is stopping you and it still works in some cases. However, checks and revenge killers are MUCH more efficient this gen/metagame, fact.

Physical Latias gets the jump on stuff like Blissey/Snorlax who try to wall it. Heracross is a viable counter somewhat but he still needs some HP EV's to survive a Choice Specs Draco Meteor if he can at all and I'm pretty sure most people invest in Atk and Spe so they wouldn't drop Atk EV's just for Latias unless they have a big problem with her.

I agree though Salamence outclasses her when it comes to physical sets though but it's usable.