Lati@s Suspect Test Discussion

I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.
 
When I first found out that Latias was taken off of the uber list and listed as OU, I thought it was going to be a disaster because of her very high stats. I'm not the best at pokemon, but I was playing on Shoddy the other day and encountered a few Latias - they weren't easy to beat or anything like that, but I certainly didn't have as much trouble with them as I thought I would.

But, Latios is a different story. I haven't battled him lately since he's still being tested, but I think (and hope) that he'll stay as an uber. The reason why Latias isn't too powerful for OU is because, while she has high defenses, her attack stats aren't the greatest, and most people seem to use her very defensively so I haven't had to worry about her 110 Sp. Atk. I also find that she has enough weaknesses to make her quite easy to KO, as long as you're careful.

I think Latios would be too physically powerful to be used effectively in OU, but chances are that he'll be put in OU with Latias, anyway. : / I already encounter people in the OU category of Shoddy who use Giratina and Darkrai anyway, so maybe it won't make such a huge difference. :P
 
Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/
 
Shiroi Togekiss said:
Latios... physically powerful? His ATK is pretty mediocre =/
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I meant his special attack, sorry. XD I'm not used to discussing pokemon, so I get some of the terms mixed up. What I meant is that in a strict offensive way, he's much more dangerous than Latias and can cause many more problems. Latias has decent special attack as well, but most people I've battled used her more defensively, so I didn't have to worry about that too much - with Latios, most people will play with him offensively, which makes him much bigger nuisance, in my opinion.
 
Anti said:
I deleted CB Latias from the first post. No, Trick doesn't suddenly make it notable either. First of all, physical walls actually use physical attacks, so if you want to screw them up, Tricking them a Choice Band of all things is probably really stupid. TrickScarf is much better for messing up walls, since all of them except Gliscor (lol) are really slow. Not only that, but TrickScarf would be taking advantage of one of the most powerful Draco Meteors in OUs and Latias's awesome Special Attack.

And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty. In a discussion that is geared towards what impact Latias will have on the metagame and what the tier status of both of them should be, novelty sets are irrelevant. Unless you can tell me that CB Latias can work without the surprise factor or whatever you want to call it and be an effective set, this matter is closed.
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Alright Anti, I was going to take it off anyway but I forgot but do you find the other sets satisfoactory?
 
Anti said:
And I reiterate, surprise value and "it can kinda work" are never justifications for taking a moveset even moderately seriously. That absolutely screams novelty.
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ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.
 
Samson said:
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.
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What you're saying is valid to a degree, although in this case, Salamence is even more versatile and can trick the opponent by pretending to use a Specs set, but using a DD one. Considering that after a DD, it has about the same Atk as +0 Mence, but can't switch out then, for fear of losing the boost. I just don't see how it acheives anything.
 
i wasn't actually speaking about certain sets, i was just saying that you can't go rule out what you assume to be novelty when common usage is just as much as an assumption of the current metagame.

but since you brought it up, i think the main idea for Latios as a DDer is that it isn't as vulnerable to srock and ice attacks. definitely not as bulky as salamence who has intimidate to boot, but damage reducing berries are just as viable with the perfect amount of hp investment to allow for a game changing sweep. sure, it's ballsy, but the metagame is what it is.
 
Samson said:
ok, i disagree on this. when you guys take every effort to calculate damage scenarios to satisfy some point, you are technically running down the same lines of possible scenarios. if a novelty set can be applied well and practically argues the same issue, then it is just as good as a justification as any overcalculated statement one could make towards the viability of set. 'poke1 can fool poke2 into free damage' is just as viable as 'poke1 can 2hko poke2'.
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But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.
 
Anti said:
But CB Latias isn't even killing what it's meant to kill. It can only do serious damage to weak Pokemon that don't resist Outrage. Sure it beats Blissey in two hits, but you are taking a huge risk in locking yourself into Outrage and hoping that it is in fact Blissey or Snorlax that is coming in when it is just as likely that it's Metagross or Bronzong coming in to absorb Draco Meteor. Besides, you may need Latias for something before it can lure in Blissey, usually something like revenge killing where you are forced to give away the "Surprise." It's way too shaky.

I agree that surprise value can be a reason to use a moveset, but it has to be of some value after the initial surprise is revealed or you're basically playing down one Pokemon. I was referring to "surprise" Pokemon that aren't useful after the surprise is up or those whose surprise isn't exactly useful, and CB Latias fits into both of those categories (seeing that it actually leaves Blissey with health to spare and can let it come in on Swampert's Ice Beam or something like that and heal up later). Besides, TrickScarf is crippling Blissey while letting Latias use attacks that do more damage.
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The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.

Archer said:
It's worth a mention that with a Yache Berry, Salamence effectively has better typing. It can maintain a better attack stat at the same time.
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This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.
 
Pokedra said:
The CB set is gone. There's no need for more discussion on it.
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I was responding to something about "surprise" sets in general which is actually pretty relevant seeing how people want to throw Flame Orb or a Choice Band on this thing.

Pokedra said:
This is a Latias discussion not a Salamence one.
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Leave the moderating to me. His point is relevant because there is no point to use DD Latios if Salamence does it better, which is true and is pretty much the reason not to use DD Latios (that and DD Latios isn't very good anyway).

Now how about instead of discussing sets that are done better by everything else, we talk about what isn't? The Choice Specs and defensive Calm Mind sets come to mind.
 
Sorry Anti. I heard someone say that they will test Latias w/th the Soul Dew in OU? Is that true?
 
I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.
 
. said:
I'm afraid of Latios's placement in OU. Using my Suspect team, I've noticed how he breaks through things usually supposed to counter him. Specs Draco Meteor is monstrous, 2HKOing even Steel types with relative ease. Grass Knot destroys Tyranitar and hits a lot of Water types harder than Draco Meteor according to their weight. I've seen a few Dual Screen users, so it seems that some people prefer to use Latios over Latias even in support sets sheerly for his higher Special Attack.
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I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.
 
Pokedra said:
I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.
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Irrelevant. Tyranitar can't switch in and beat Latios, period. Here is Timid Choice specs Latios' Surf on standard Choice Band Tyranitar:

538 Atk vs 354 Def & 385 HP (95 Base Power): 208 - 246 (54.03% - 63.90%)

It's always a 2HKO regardless of SR. Grass Knot does even more though I really don't know why you would use it. Draco Meteor will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock down. Not a counter.

Pokedra said:
Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.
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CBGross is almost never seen (so little that Choice Band isn't even mentioned under Metagross in this month's usage statistics). Neither of them have any business staying in to get smashed by Tyranitar either if they're setting up screens. Snorlax is another example of something they don't have any business messing with. The bulk helps, but so does extra special attack. You can't forget that what switches in on Latios might also be different (less threatening stuff usually since only special walls can take its hits). You can't just declare one better since "better" completely relies on the situation.

Pokedra said:
Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.
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Isn't that kind of a given though? Nobody is arguing against that.
 
I suppose Draco Meteor off 130 SpAtk is quite deadly but Tyranitar will make a fair counter to him. With some HP investments and Sand Steam Latios will fail to OHKO and will die to Crunch and he has paltry 194 Def which is really weak.
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I know that, however, the majority of TTar I see are the standard 176 HP / 0 SpD versions. Even bulkier versions get hurt badly by Grass Knot.

Latias makes a better Dual Screen because she can set up the screens and then take some hits. Examples Latios will still be 2HKO'ed by Tyranitar's Crunch with Reflect while Latias is only 3HKO'ed. Same goes for CB Meteor Mash from Metagross and CB Snorlax Crunch.
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Um...thanks for telling me something I already know?

Both Lati's have their purposes. Latios is fearomse with awesome 130 SpAtk and a wide movepool while Latias supports and attacks off a fairly respectable SpAtk. My point is both of the Lati's will make an impact on the metagame but now the metagame is different and will be able to deal with them.
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My bet is Latios will be a sweeper and Latias will be a support Pokemon. Yes.
 
For the chronicle, if you don't like the actual metagame another simulator he has gone out for hardly Diamond & Pearl (and therefore I decidedly find opportune to modify the name of the section Shoddy Lounge) where the dictatorship of Smogon there is not to create problems on the metagame, says this Latias he can quietly be stopped by a defensive Tyranitar with Pursuit, and if he is good battler also wanting from a Bulky Scizor (or a Scizor with many HP and Special Defense) Swords Dance is used while Latias uses Calm Mind and immediately later him him abbate with Bullet Punch, totally talked different as it regards Latios, it is a real it unswathes team, in the Suspect Ladder it is practically impossible to be stopped, even Pokémon as Skymin or Garchomp were less dangerous, therefore it has to stay uber or otherwise goodbye Shoddy.
 
Latios is a huge threat I agree Sebestian but Latios will probably be OU as well. We'll see.
 
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