I think Smogon is wrong.

[Kozoi]

Okay, before I get a bunch of raging Smogon nerds I would like to argue my side across. Smogon is used by everyone to rank Pokémon into tiers, nobody has tried to argue with Smogon because Smogon couldn't be wrong, could it? For those who do not know the tiers are divided up into Neverused, Underused, Overused and Uber depending on a variety of different factors.

According to smogon users, the first factor that divides tiers up and the most important is how many people use them. Not on Wi-Fi though, oh no. Just on Shoddy Battle, a battling simluation program where people test teams and battle for fun. This means that only the more intellectual battlers use it and people who use Pokémon such as Pikachu do not exist, thus making Pokémon like Pikachu NU dispite the fact it is used in almost every kids Platinum team. This is a problem in itself.

The next factor, according to smogon users is movepool and stats. Now this is completely wrong because there are plenty of NU Pokémon with stats equal or better than that of an OU Pokémon. Lets compare one, shall we?

Gardevoir Statistics:
HP: 68
Attack: 65
Defense: 65
Special Attack: 125
Special Defense: 115
Speed: 80

These stats seem pretty average for a UU Pokémon right? Exactly, but that's not all. Gardevoir has an excellent movepool which includes great attacks such as Psychic, Energyball, Focusblast, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power, Grassknot, Shadowball, Will-O-Wisp, Wish, Hypnosis and many other useful moves. That's not all! Gardevoir has the unique ability Trace which copies the opponents ability. This means Gardevoir can switch in on Jolteon and Vaporeon, two top tier OU Pokémon and basically laugh in their faces. Guess what? This Pokémon is NU.

Alakazam Statistics:
Hp: 55
Attack: 50
Defense: 45
Special Attack: 135
Special Defense: 85
Speed: 120

This Pokémon is always coupled with Syncronize or Inner Focus. Both of which are pretty much terrible abilities compared to Gardevoirs rare Trace ability. Alakazam has a much more limited movepool too, the only special sweeping moves it can learn of any value are Psychic, Hidden Power, Focus Blast, Signal Beam and Shadow Ball. These moves are pretty typical and can be predicted. Sure Alakazam has slightly better special attack and hugely better speed but Gardevoir makes up with it by being much more bulky and having that rare ability. This Pokémon is OU which is common knowledge but comparing it to Gardevoir close up makes it seem pretty pathetic in comparison.

There are plenty of other Neverused Pokémon which aren't bad by any means, one of these is Ramparados which has one of the biggest attack stats in the game. (165) This is bigger than any Rhyperior, Jirachi or Aerodactyl. With choice scarf I could see that Pokémon tearing teams apart in OU. (Plus it has an excellent movepool) Another example is Aggron with a monsterous 180 defense and a respectable 110 attack stat. It also has a great movepool and a pretty acceptable ability yet it is NU.

Looking at all of these NU Pokémon which are really worthy of OU makes me sick, if you use a Pokémon like Gardevoir in the OU tier on shoddy then you're liable to be laughed at for using an NU Pokémon. Nobody gives these Pokémon a chance, they just stick to the same overused Pokémon in every single Wi-Fi battle.

Tl;dr - Smogon is wrong, they're tiering Pokémon up based on the same Pokémon that are used over and over again. All people do now is grab the first set they see on Smogon and throw together a pretty darn predictable team. This can be seen on Serebii Wi-Fi chat, check it out there.

Discuss and share your nerdy thoughts.

 

[Greene1516]

Well on your example right there the speed is what makes the huge difference. Alakazam can outspeed and OHKO most of the best Pokemon out there, whereas Gardevoir struggles to keep up the pace and gets plastered to the wall before it gets to attack. The fact that it can counter Vaporeon and Jolteon means diddly-squat; they are but 2 POkemon of many hundreds.

And then of course there is the main factor which you mentioned yourself, the tiers represent what is used the most on SHoddy, not what is the best necessarily, so maybe you should read your own post before ranting on again.

And for the record, I hate smogon, so don't think only smogon loving nerds are going to contest you. The tiers are a joke, but your understanding of why is much less impressive.

 

[Redstar]

I agree entirely. I've taken down Giritina and Deoxys before with only my Farfetch'd.

 

[The Scientist]

Greene1516 got it.

The tiers are determined by what the players choose, and not vice versa. A Pokemon/moveset only becomes popular in competetive battling if it's effective. If everyone starts running a U-Turn/Bullet Punch Scizor, then Scizor will be high-tiered. When someone finds a way to counter it, it'll drop (like what happened to Rampardos, lead Bronzong/Yanmega, Arcanine, etc.)

In the end, it's the players who decide the tiers, and Smogon just reports on those statistics. It does discourage new players from experimenting on their own at first, but eventually they will have no choice but do think for themselves.

Regardless, my Xatu rips through Tyranitar with surprising ease.

 

[Kozoi]

Well on your example right there the speed is what makes the huge difference. Alakazam can outspeed and OHKO most of the best Pokemon out there, whereas Gardevoir struggles to keep up the pace and gets plastered to the wall before it gets to attack. The fact that it can counter Vaporeon and Jolteon means diddly-squat; they are but 2 POkemon of many hundreds.

And then of course there is the main factor which you mentioned yourself, the tiers represent what is used the most on SHoddy, not what is the best necessarily, so maybe you should read your own post before ranting on again.

And for the record, I hate smogon, so don't think only smogon loving nerds are going to contest you. The tiers are a joke, but your understanding of why is much less impressive.

I lol'd, good job. Gardevoir can make an excellent support Pokémon in OU and has much more going for it than Alakazam. Good for Alakazam having good speed but that doesn't save it from a Choice Scarfed Shadow Ball. Gardevoir can counter pretty much any Pokémon with flash fire, water absorb or volt absorb. Considering this, it's a prime example of a counter in the OU tier.

I mentioned the factor myself that Smogon is wrong BECAUSE they're tiering Pokémon based on how many people use them in Shoddy Battle, not Wi-Fi. This effects many Wi-Fi battlers, even those who do not use Shoddy Battle. You tried to make out that I didn't know this, or tried to restate what I already knew in an attempt to argue your point across. Pointless.

I agree entirely. I've taken down Giritina and Deoxys before with only my Farfetch'd.

I love to embarass uber teams with NU Pokémon.

Greene1516 got it.

The tiers are determined by what the players choose, and not vice versa. A Pokemon/moveset only becomes popular in competetive battling if it's effective. If everyone starts running a U-Turn/Bullet Punch Scizor, then Scizor will be high-tiered. When someone finds a way to counter it, it'll drop (like what happened to Rampardos, lead Bronzong/Yanmega, Arcanine, etc.)

In the end, it's the players who decide the tiers, and Smogon just reports on those statistics. It does discourage new players from experimenting on their own at first, but eventually they will have no choice but do think for themselves.

Regardless, my Xatu rips through Tyranitar with surprising ease.

Paragraph 1 - Wait, didn't I already say that in the first place?
Paragraph 2 - Okay, sure.

Yeah, Xatu is pretty kick ass in OU too but it's not a Tyranitar counter because of Stone Edge.

Can you stop restating what I said guys? Smogon tiers are WRONG because of how they tier Pokémon up. They need to consider stats a little more and possibly, just possibly actually consider how many people use them in Wi-Fi.

On the topic of Gardevoir, it's more bulky and sturdy than Alakazam and is still not a bad Pokémon for UU/OU by any means. It can counter Heatran, Swampert, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Lanturn, Lapras, Arcanine and can usually deal with most Gyarados, Salamence, Flygon, etc providing that they haven't DDced enough to outspeed choice scarf 80 speed users. Gardevoir has Will-O-Wisp, Wish, Hypnosis and Toxic. All of these are support moves that work well in the OU tier.

Also Scarf Rampardos with 165 attack is win. I've been using it in OU for a while and it hasn't let me down once.

 

[Charmageddon]

Aggron is useless because it gets utterly destroyed by Earthquake and any fighting move. And Gardevoir having Toxic means diddly-squat, every pokemon that can learn TMs can learn that.

But yeah, I agree with parts of your post.

 

[Niprop]

The same reason that Porygon2 (A major Heatran, Gyrados, AND Salamence counter rolled into one!) is, and why Gyrados pre-D/P/P was. Most pokémon have decent stats, but they are used next to none in competitive play. Smeargle was only recently bumped to OU because of it's Baton-Passing abilities.

 

[thegeneticway]

Yes, I don't like how they put the tiers also, but you can't really change everyone's thought ~

 

[Game Over1375]

Okay, before I get a bunch of raging Smogon nerds I would like to argue my side across. Smogon is used by everyone to rank Pokémon into tiers, nobody has tried to argue with Smogon because Smogon couldn't be wrong, could it? For those who do not know the tiers are divided up into Neverused, Underused, Overused and Uber depending on a variety of different factors.

According to smogon users, the first factor that divides tiers up and the most important is how many people use them. Not on Wi-Fi though, oh no. Just on Shoddy Battle, a battling simluation program where people test teams and battle for fun. This means that only the more intellectual battlers use it and people who use Pokémon such as Pikachu do not exist, thus making Pokémon like Pikachu NU dispite the fact it is used in almost every kids Platinum team. This is a problem in itself.

The next factor, according to smogon users is movepool and stats. Now this is completely wrong because there are plenty of NU Pokémon with stats equal or better than that of an OU Pokémon. Lets compare one, shall we?

Gardevoir Statistics:
HP: 68
Attack: 65
Defense: 65
Special Attack: 125
Special Defense: 115
Speed: 80

These stats seem pretty average for a UU Pokémon right? Exactly, but that's not all. Gardevoir has an excellent movepool which includes great attacks such as Psychic, Energyball, Focusblast, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power, Grassknot, Shadowball, Will-O-Wisp, Wish, Hypnosis and many other useful moves. That's not all! Gardevoir has the unique ability Trace which copies the opponents ability. This means Gardevoir can switch in on Jolteon and Vaporeon, two top tier OU Pokémon and basically laugh in their faces. Guess what? This Pokémon is NU.

Alakazam Statistics:
Hp: 55
Attack: 50
Defense: 45
Special Attack: 135
Special Defense: 85
Speed: 120

This Pokémon is always coupled with Syncronize or Inner Focus. Both of which are pretty much terrible abilities compared to Gardevoirs rare Trace ability. Alakazam has a much more limited movepool too, the only special sweeping moves it can learn of any value are Psychic, Hidden Power, Focus Blast, Signal Beam and Shadow Ball. These moves are pretty typical and can be predicted. Sure Alakazam has slightly better special attack and hugely better speed but Gardevoir makes up with it by being much more bulky and having that rare ability. This Pokémon is OU which is common knowledge but comparing it to Gardevoir close up makes it seem pretty pathetic in comparison.

There are plenty of other Neverused Pokémon which aren't bad by any means, one of these is Ramparados which has one of the biggest attack stats in the game. (165) This is bigger than any Rhyperior, Jirachi or Aerodactyl. With choice scarf I could see that Pokémon tearing teams apart in OU. (Plus it has an excellent movepool) Another example is Aggron with a monsterous 180 defense and a respectable 110 attack stat. It also has a great movepool and a pretty acceptable ability yet it is NU.

Looking at all of these NU Pokémon which are really worthy of OU makes me sick, if you use a Pokémon like Gardevoir in the OU tier on shoddy then you're liable to be laughed at for using an NU Pokémon. Nobody gives these Pokémon a chance, they just stick to the same overused Pokémon in every single Wi-Fi battle.

Tl;dr - Smogon is wrong, they're tiering Pokémon up based on the same Pokémon that are used over and over again. All people do now is grab the first set they see on Smogon and throw together a pretty darn predictable team. This can be seen on Serebii Wi-Fi chat, check it out there.

Discuss and share your nerdy thoughts.

Dude, I agree with you on almost all of your points. Gardevoir has a better stat spread than Alakazam, but you are forgetting Alakazam's speed stat. Now if a Gardevoir had a Choice Scarf, that speed stat of Alakazam's would be useless. That is true.

Now let's talk about Rampardos. That thing's attack stat is absolutely phenomenal. However, take a look at its stat spread. Attack is the only thing that stands out, and its ability is kinda useless with its physical movepool. If that thing went up against my Rhyperior, it would be destroyed by one, ONE, Earthquake, even if it got the first hit.

Basically what I'm trying to say is this. While you do make plenty of points, you are not backing it up with the right things.

An example of this would be my Muk absolutely destroying an Uber team the other day.

 

[Roxasabridged]

Meh, I don't listen to tiers. Probably because I don't IV/EV train my Pokemon and battle competitively. But if I did, I would use any Pokemon I want, even if it was considered useless.

If Magikarp can beat an uber team, then the tier list is kinda wrong to me anyway.

 

[Sackferth]

Meh, I don't listen to tiers. Probably because I don't IV/EV train my Pokemon and battle competitively. But if I did, I would use any Pokemon I want, even if it was considered useless.

If Magikarp can beat an uber team, then the tier list is kinda wrong to me anyway.

Have fun getting a Magikarp to beat an Uber team with Giratina on it. :P

 

[Aurafire]

No one is saying you can't use UU/NU pokemon in OU or even Uber battles. Take the tiering levels with a grain of salt if you wish. But you forget the Smogon and its members don't determine tiering based only on usage. They identify suspects that may need to move up or down in tiering and go through hours and hours of testing to determine where said suspects should be. If you're saying that someone else could do a better job in determining tiering based on actual empirical data, then you're quite wrong.

You're also dead wrong in saying that stats have anything to do with tiering. Just because a lower-tier pokemon may have higher stats than an OU pokemon doesn't mean that it should be OU as well. Slaking has some of the best base stats in the game...So you're saying it should be OU simply by that fact? Truant totally ruins it and makes it totally prediction-reliant. Take Gardevoir: When played correctly, it can be useful in OU as a support pokemon. But being useful in OU doesn't mean it should in fact be there. The point is, most players will overlook Gardevoir in favor of more reliable options. Once again, that doesn't mean you can't use it. But know that there is a reason why the most successful OU teams use, surprise surprise, the most overused pokemon.

You also can't compare Gardevoir and Alakazam, as both play incredibly different roles. Obviously, Gardevoir is more of a support pokemon, while Alakazam is oriented more towards sweeping. Pretending like one could do the job of the other is ridiculous. How can you possibly justify that Gardevoir is "better" than Alakazam by only basing your opinion on a comparison of the two?

Rampardos and Aggron are jokes in OU, despite their stats. Once again, stats have nothing to do with tiering, or even the pokemons usefulness. Ramparos is among the slowest and most fragile pokemon in the game, and a huge attack stat which it cannot take advantage of doesn't make it worthy of a higher tier.

Once again, no one is saying you can't use UU/NU pokemon in OU. But the hard data will always tell you that you're almost always statistically more likely to lose if you do. But hey, if you think that they work, then go for it.

 

[wolf]

How can you prove Shoddy contains noobs? If your rating is low in Shoddy, of course it will pair you up with noobs until you rise up the ladder (same if you don't go on Shoddy much). If you base it on the chatroom, which only like 8 people use. That is a very small amount compared to who are online at the time (which is around 100 people). I've been on a lot of Wi-Fi/Shoddy communities, and Shoddy has roughly the same amount of good battlers Wi-Fi does. I also know a lot of Wi-Fi battlers that frequently use Shoddy (here, and other forums).

If you don't like tiers, tough. You don't need to follow their tiers, there are plenty of people out there that I don't follow them either. If you want Gardevoir in OU, just convince everyone to use it. That's how Umbreon made it to OU. Smogon is not saying Rampardos sucks because it is NU, if you like it, use it, no one is stopping you. Just because Rampardos is not the current "trend", doesn't mean it sucks.

You also have the tiering wrong on how it works. I would explain, but I don't feel like typing a wall of text.

Edit: Aura beat me. ;o;

 

[Niprop]

Also, they were considering making a special tier for Primeape and Quagshire and similar Pokes that do poorly in OU, but are great in the Uber tier. Forgot where I heard it though, so it might not be official...

The dynamics also change dramatically in Double Battling. Wobuffet drops in efficiency due to the fact that you are no longer forced to hit it and get instant-koed by a counter, and can even gang up on it, and Slacking can be Gasto-Acided by support to show those snoddy OUs that rejected it who's boss. Minun and Plusle are also a bit more useful here, though I still wouldn't suggest using them.

Many things go in determining the dynamics of a Pokémon, so what's listed isn't necessarily true in all types of play.

Also, Gardevoir is seeing an upage of use, particularly in Double Battles with Gallade. This is for Real (no offense to Shoddy) battling though, so Smogon might not record this...

 

[Xebelleon]

I like the funny comments they have on certain pages like Unown, Luvdisc and Spinda.

Main thing I hate is the Blastoise & Granbull I like are unlisted.

 

[Air Pichu]

I think Greene said it.

I don't use their stuff for Shoddy, but for ordinary gameplay.

 

[FaWa]

Well I've recently begun using lower tiers in higher level play. My NU team does pretty well in UU, and my UU team actually wins a few battles in OU.

 

[Apostrophe]

Arguing for (or against) the tiers is useless. People will always find new ways to use underused Pokemon in some crazy, well-thought-out strategy. In the end, the people who write the tiers are just saying "Hey, here's what's being used a lot, and here's what's not being used very much". They're not trying to tell you what to use, just what is being used.

 

[Johto's Best]

I've never used Smogon before, and I still beat my friend who copies EVERYTHING they do. I'm glad you brought this point up, it gives me a reason to keep ignoring it.

 

[NatureKeeper]

I use Pachirisu in my team, and I tottaly thre Dialga out of my team. Pachirusu is now not NU, I use it.

Tiering is unfair for Pokémon.