Worst remake?

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    Which remake do you think is the worst? Id say The lets gos. They strictly exist to try and rope in new fans and dont add anything new besides that. Especially seeing as they already remade gen 1 back on the gba
     
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    I don't even know if you could call the Let's Go games a true "remake." It seems like the games take place in Kanto, but with new characters this time around. However, they are too strongly based on old characters. They also aren't part of the mainline series, as they lack most things that mainline games have, such as Abilities, breeding, a competitive scene, and so on. With that, it would be hard to choose the true "worst" remake because I enjoy them all, but if I had to choose, I would choose Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen. Yet I didn't choose them because I thought they were bad games. In fact, I think they're great games that improved upon Generation I a lot, but compared to Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, and Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, they're just outdated games.
     
    The Let's Go Games shouldn't have been a thing at all, so those games most certainly. Felt like they were made only to cash in on Pokemon Go's popularity, and that's it. These are the only main series games I've skipped, and I don't plan on ever buying them. I suppose a close second would be Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl for being so rushed out the door.
     
    Never played LGPE because I think they're the worst based on what I've seen about them.

    Maybe if I did I would enjoy them more than I suppose, but I highly doubt that'll ever happen since I'm very sick of Kanto and the original 151 at this point.

    Other than that, FRLG were nice and much needed remakes for its time, but too archaic to play these days. I could endure the lack of Fairies and the Gen 2-5 type chart, but the lack of Physical/Special split is just too much. There are tons of rom hacks & fan games that surpass vanilla FRLG in every way.
     
    I have played the Let's Go games, and I find them rather boring. I don't feel that they "ruined the old games" or whatever, but I was really disappointed with what they did change and what they didn't change from Pokémon Fire Red & Leaf Green (which I love playing but did not grow up with). I can't give a full thesis on why Pokémon Let's Go Pikachu bores me other than the fact it's too easy. I wouldn't say difficulty is the only problem wtih LGPE. I tried doing a second play through before Pokémon Violet came out, and it was really boring to me.

    I was actually really surprised when I first heard from YouTube that people hated FRLG because they seem like the Gen I games with much better mechanics. I'm actually still surprised by the people in this thread criticizing FRLG for not having the physical/special split because it's not a big deal to me one way or the other. Gyarados as a physical attacker is definitely cool, but I've never felt like FRLG were super primitive.

    Honestly, I completely forgot about Pokémon Let's Go, and I came into this thread expecting tons of replies about Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. I have not played Brilliant Diamond thoroughly as of this post, but I know Pokémon Twitter was really mad about the lack of updates from the original Diamond & Pearl titles.
     
    I haven't played them but without a shadow of doubt BDSP. Those games look like a lifeless clone of the original games without any soul. Yeah you can argue LGPE due to its absurd price tag for a laughably simplified Kanto experience but at the very least they looked they had some polish and tried to do something different with them. ngl, I feel if the price was reduced I would merely brush it off as not my cup of tea (I only played the demo and I knew I wouldn't enjoy it should I get the full game). BDSP has none of this and it's just DP with a larger price tag with watered down features (only up to the Sinnoh Pokemon, no Battle Frontier, no Distortion World, etc) and game breaking glitches. Fans were wanting a Sinnoh remake for years and the fact they got this feels like an insult.

    If I ever wanted to experience Sinnoh again, I can just play Platinum tbh.
     
    I still haven't played LGPE because everything I've seen about it doesn't really appeal to me, I hate the Pokemon Go catching system and it's why I don't play a lot of Pokemon Go. It also doesn't look like they really added a lot, Kanto is one of the most boring regions to me even though I'm nostalgic for it because of FRLG, but they didn't even add the new and exciting parts FRLG added with the Sevii Islands. Like if you're going to remake Kanto a second time in 3D why not expand the region? Like I still think they should add an actual volcano to Cinnabar Island or more interesting rooms in dungeons.

    Though as I said I haven't played LGPE so I'd probably have to go with BDSP. It's fine for what it is and it's nice to have better QOL features while playing through Sinnoh, but as a remake it's very bland because it's just the original games with a new coat of paint. At least they added following Pokemon? Just compared to every other remake though it's not good.

    When it comes to FRLG it is a gen 3 game so your enjoyment of it is going to depend on how much you can tolerate older mechanics. While I do prefer rom hacks that have the physical/special split, it's not usually something I'd notice in a casual playthrough and even if I had to worry about it at least it's not too hard to remember which type is which.
     
    I'd say BDSP

    LGP/E, like it or not, offers a perspective into the region with a very different look and feel from the originals and a gameplay style that's adapted to a new audience - it's not really a remake trying to appeal to the main series players, it's more of a retelling trying to hook PoGo gamers into the main Pokemon series, and that's fine, not everything has to appeal to the entire fanbase.

    Even the older remakes like FRLG, HGSS and ORAS still abide by those guidelines I mentioned (even if they're a lot more closely related to the original stories), some (like HGSS) doing new things that were loved by the fans and took until Gen VIII DLC to happen again (and I'd argue that they still haven't gotten Pokemon following you right).

    BDSP though? It was rushed like every other Pokemon game in Gen VIII, but this time it was copying a game that just isn't that far removed from the current meta.

    Gen I had a total of 4 colors at any given time, FRLG had full color 16 bit graphics and had so many QoL and mechanical upgrades. FRLG also marked a way to get a bunch of Kanto Pokemon since the move to the GBA broke backwards compatibility.

    Gen II had 8 bit graphics, HGSS had 2.5D graphics and many QoL and mechanical upgrades. It also marked a way to get a bunch of Johto Pokémon at the current that were hard to get previously (like the starters, Ho-Oh and Lugia)

    Gen III had 2D graphics, ORAS had full 3D graphics and many QoL and mechanical upgrades. It also marked a way to get a bunch of Hoenn Pokemon on the 3DS since it didn't have a GBA port without having to go RSE -> DPP -> BW -> PokéTransporter -> XY

    But Gen IV is the beginning of modern Pokémon. It's missing a type, a few items and abilities (and hidden abilities) but they're generally subtle things, and affect people a lot less. The few game wasn't balanced around the new things (like the new Exp Share) so things got out of control quickly, they forced a 3D style that mimicked the original 2.5D instead of reimagining the maps so it didn't even look like a fun new way to experience the game.

    And PLA would release 2 months later containing all the Gen IV Pokémon anyways so it's not even a "making it easier to get older Pokemon" game.
     
    FRLG a gen1 remake but was worse bottom of the other remakes meaning so very little postgame and let's go series also seems share with frlg but little more content or feature

    BDSP less worse than gen 1 remake, nothing exciting out of the blues
     
    LGP/E, like it or not, offers a perspective into the region with a very different look and feel from the originals and a gameplay style that's adapted to a new audience - it's not really a remake trying to appeal to the main series players, it's more of a retelling trying to hook PoGo gamers into the main Pokemon series, and that's fine, not everything has to appeal to the entire fanbase.

    Sure, but the execution was poor. The game was ridiculously easy, only allowed use of one joy-con when docked, removed wild (not trainer) battles, and implemented the Pokémon GO catching system instead of the traditional one. People will not always consider a game good simply because it attempts to appeal to another audience. Besides, can you even call Pokémon Let's Go a remake? The games are almost completely different to Pokémon Red, Blue, and Yellow, as they tell a different story with different characters, much upgraded graphics, various new features, regional variants, different challenges, and so on. If anything, I would say that Let's Go is its own thing.

    BDSP though? It was rushed like every other Pokemon game in Gen VIII, but this time it was copying a game that just isn't that far removed from the current meta.

    Just because some games can be considered rushed doesn't mean that people won't consider it good. I believe that Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl improved Pokémon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum in various ways.
     
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    Sure, but the execution was poor. The game was ridiculously easy, only allowed use of one joy-con when docked, removed trainer battles, and implemented the Pokémon GO catching system instead of the traditional one. People will not always consider a game good simply because it attempts to appeal to another audience.

    As I said and you yourself repeated, it appeals to another audience - that is, not you. So if the game was easy, well it's easy to you, who's a competitive trainer, it very much likely isn't ridiculously easy to Little Timmy the 5 year old who can barely read, or John the person that hasn't played Pokemon in 20 years and just came back because of PoGo. Different audiences, different game balance.

    (Also, there are trainer battles in the game. There might not be multiplayer battles, but there are trainer battles.)

    Regardless of that, "I don't like it" and "It's bad" are two different statements, so are "I like it" and "It's good". The question isn't "Which one you dislike the most" so I'm judging the games on their artistry, what it's existence brings to the table besides just being a game in general, and a number of other things.

    I think it's a good game because it accomplishes what it set out to do: make a fun game for the PoGo crowd, which are mostly younger kids, people getting into Pokemon and people that were into Pokemon 20 years ago but stopped playing when Pokemania kinda died. It also did that while being very technically competent and pretty to look at.

    To make an analogy, I don't like soccer, but it doesn't make soccer a bad game - it's the most popular sport in the world, it's clearly doing something right. Different games have different yardsticks, and while LGPE might not necessarily be a game I'd recommend, I do think it's a good game.

    Besides, can you even call Pokémon Let's Go a remake? The games are almost completely different to Pokémon Red, Blue, and Yellow, as they tell a different story with different characters, much upgraded graphics, various new features, regional variants, different challenges, and so on. If anything, I would say that Let's Go is its own thing.

    I wouldn't say completely different, as the story beats are generally very similar to Yellow (minus the gift Pokemon). Plus remakes don't have to be shot for shot, you can (and probably should) add new stuff, to tell a similar story but with different decisions. If anything, if the story was 100% the same I'd be more inclined to call it a remaster than a remake.

    (Also, no remake in Pokemon was a shot for shot remake, they all added characters and story beats even if only slightly or in the post game.)

    Just because some games can be considered rushed doesn't mean that people won't consider it good. I believe that Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl improved Pokémon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum in various ways.

    OK, but I didn't say the games were bad because they were rushed. At least not only because of that - SV are undeniably rushed and they are easily my favorite games in the franchise. I said the games were bad because they were rushed and didn't significantly provide a different experience, both due to mechanical reasons and graphical reasons. And while I didn't say that, there's also the usual laundry list of complaints I'm sure you saw when the game released by the sheer dint of being in a Pokemon community at the time.

    If you believe they improved on the originals, good for you. I'm glad you had a good experience with the game, but historically we've had very different priorities to the point that I would consider us different target audiences and so that's hardly surprising.

    And it's 2023, year of our lord, we all should be past the mindset that "everybody needs to like something or consider it good". There is no piece of art that's universally liked and there is no piece of art that's universally considered good. If that's your conclusion, I'm glad you found joy and merit in this game; I couldn't though, I think it was very bland and completely dispensable.
     
    Honestly, I completely forgot about Pokémon Let's Go, and I came into this thread expecting tons of replies about Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. I have not played Brilliant Diamond thoroughly as of this post, but I know Pokémon Twitter was really mad about the lack of updates from the original Diamond & Pearl titles.

    It's a bit strange, because BDSP actually improve on DP's Pokémon availability with the Underground, increases challenge for important trainers compared to the usual joke difficulty that many of us repeatedly complain about, and removes the HM annoyance from the experience. That's actually more than FRLG and HGSS did in some areas. Meanwhile, in both Kanto remakes you can't even get Crobat...

    Sure, BDSP aren't the greatest remakes ever made, but all the remakes made very questionable choices for the sake of faithfulness or whatever reason. BDSP's main issue is that it's based on DP instead of Platinum, which is generally considered one of the best third versions.
     
    As I said and you yourself repeated, it appeals to another audience - that is, not you. So if the game was easy, well it's easy to you, who's a competitive trainer, it very much likely isn't ridiculously easy to Little Timmy the 5 year old who can barely read, or John the person that hasn't played Pokemon in 20 years and just came back because of PoGo. Different audiences, different game balance. (Also, there are trainer battles in the game. There might not be multiplayer battles, but there are trainer battles.) Regardless of that, "I don't like it" and "It's bad" are two different statements, so are "I like it" and "It's good". The question isn't "Which one you dislike the most" so I'm judging the games on their artistry, what it's existence brings to the table besides just being a game in general, and a number of other things. I think it's a good game because it accomplishes what it set out to do: make a fun game for the PoGo crowd, which are mostly younger kids, people getting into Pokemon and people that were into Pokemon 20 years ago but stopped playing when Pokemania kinda died. It also did that while being very technically competent and pretty to look at. To make an analogy, I don't like soccer, but it doesn't make soccer a bad game - it's the most popular sport in the world, it's clearly doing something right. Different games have different yardsticks, and while LGPE might not necessarily be a game I'd recommend, I do think it's a good game.

    Regardless of what audience it appeals to, the easiness is one of the main reasons that I disliked the game, along with the horrible gameplay, such as being able to play with only one joy-con, which made playing on the television very uncomfortable. You literally have to play Pokémon Let's Go handheld (in your own home) to enjoy it with both joy-cons, which is ridiculous. By the way, when I said "trainer battles," I actually meant "wild battles." That was a mistake. The question is: which remake is the worst? Yet, you didn't list anything that Pokémon Let's Go brought to the table, at least from a gameplay perspective. When people ask a question about what remade game is "the worst," I expect others to answer the question by sharing their experiences with the game and mentioning what they enjoyed the most about it compared to the others. Mentioning that the game simply "does what it set out to do" does not relate to why you enjoyed playing it more than Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen, or Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire.

    By your logic, you can say that everything is a "good game" for accomplishing what it sets out to do because practically every game appeals to someone. Yet, it explains nothing about what makes the gameplay more enjoyable than the other games it's being compared to. It depends on how you define "bad," as "bad" isn't an objective term. Many people do define things that they dislike as bad. In your analogy, saying that soccer isn't bad simply because it's the most popular sport in the world isn't relevant to why you find the game of soccer to be better than other sports. Saying something is popular implies that a large number of people enjoy it, but it says nothing about your own feelings about it. For example, for me, soccer is horrible because they very rarely score points. I value frequent, non-stop scoring in sports, which is why basketball is my favorite sport. If I said that basketball is great because it's popular, that says nothing about why I think the sport itself is great when watching it compared to others. Thus, I'm curious to know: what is it about playing the game that you find more enjoyable than the other remakes?

    I wouldn't say completely different, as the story beats are generally very similar to Yellow (minus the gift Pokemon). Plus remakes don't have to be shot for shot, you can (and probably should) add new stuff, to tell a similar story but with different decisions. If anything, if the story was 100% the same I'd be more inclined to call it a remaster than a remake.

    (Also, no remake in Pokemon was a shot for shot remake, they all added characters and story beats even if only slightly or in the post game.)

    I disagree. Sure, I get that the story is very similar to Pokémon Yellow, but the game itself is practically nothing like Pokémon Yellow in the grand scheme of things because they added completely different characters, features, and a ton of new content. At that point, it might as well just be considered its own standalone game rather than a remake. Remastered games are games that are simply given an upgrade with graphics and sometimes the soundtrack. Oftentimes, developers just edit the existing code rather than making a new game from scratch when remastering a game. For example, a game like LA Noire was remastered when it was released for the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 because all they did was touch up the graphics, but a game like Spyro Reignited Trilogy is a remake because they made the three Spyro games from the PlayStation 1 from scratch. Yet, despite that, it's the same game with practically the same script and everything, with only a few teenie-tiny changes here and there. Let's Go is a teenie-tiny change from Yellow; it's a huge change.

    OK, but I didn't say the games were bad because they were rushed. At least not only because of that - SV are undeniably rushed and they are easily my favorite games in the franchise. I said the games were bad because they were rushed and didn't significantly provide a different experience, both due to mechanical reasons and graphical reasons. And while I didn't say that, there's also the usual laundry list of complaints I'm sure you saw when the game released by the sheer dint of being in a Pokemon community at the time. If you believe they improved on the originals, good for you. I'm glad you had a good experience with the game, but historically we've had very different priorities to the point that I would consider us different target audiences and so that's hardly surprising. And it's 2023, year of our lord, we all should be past the mindset that "everybody needs to like something or consider it good". There is no piece of art that's universally liked and there is no piece of art that's universally considered good. If that's your conclusion, I'm glad you found joy and merit in this game; I couldn't though, I think it was very bland and completely dispensable.

    I never said that you said they were bad. I said that people can still consider a rushed game to be good or not. Either way, now I see that you finally gave a somewhat clearer reason as to why you consider the Sinnoh remakes bad. My question is, regardless of the fact that you feel the Sinnoh remakes didn't offer you a different experience, what is it exactly that makes Let's Go more enjoyable? Does gameplay not matter to you? Is simply having a different experience in a game enough to keep you entertained? If so, that's interesting. For me personally, I need more than a different experience to be entertained by something because I value good gameplay. My belief that they improved on the originals is one reason why I thought the remakes were good. They improved the graphics and soundtrack that made it look better, removed HMs that made traversing the region easier and saved plenty of move slots, and put the game on an updated system that allowed me to play it on my TV as well, where it looks beautiful in HD. I also don't believe that everybody needs to like or consider something good. I just want to hear more about why you enjoy the Pokémon Let's Go series the most. I'm just interested in learning about how someone can enjoy something so horrible, which might give me a new perspective on the matter. Like, how are the Sinnoh remakes "bland and dispensable?"
     
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    *sigh* Gonna have to drop a super hot take in this thread aren't I? HG/SS are the worst remakes for me.
    I've played through Heart Gold once, right after I finished my first ever playthrough of Fire Red, and thought it was alright.
    But it was only the second Pokemon game I had ever played at the time.
    I've played through Soul Silver a total of three times in my life, two of which were Nuzlockes.
    I have never played another Pokemon game in my life that felt so unnecessarily long and bloated with story dialogue that went absolutely nowhere,
    and I've played AT LEAST one of the main series games every Generation, sometimes both.
    It feels like it takes FOREVER to level up, (though all of the old DS era games had that problem to some degree in fairness)
    and I don't mean that it took more XP to level, I mean that the time it takes to faint the opposing pokemon, then get the XP, then god forbid you level up,
    takes so much longer than it feels like it should. And then there's Clair... I have NEVER in my entire history of Pokemon as a franchise,
    HATED a Gym Leader as much as Clair. Was it because she was just that difficult? HA! No. It was because she was the MOST unprofessional, whiny,
    poor sported Gym Leader in the whole of Pokemon. (and she was in the SAME GAME/s as Whitney FFS!)
    I think what really sunk these games for me was when I got around to playing Crystal on my 3DS.
    Now THAT game was good, everything felt like it took just the right amount of time to do, no extra story bloat, Clair still sucked but what can ya do you know?
    I consider Crystal to be my second favorite game in the series, I just wish the remakes were even close to as good for me.
     
    Regardless of what audience it appeals to, the easiness is one of the main reasons that I disliked the game, along with the horrible gameplay, such as being able to play with only one joy-con, which made playing on the television very uncomfortable. You literally have to play Pokémon Let's Go handheld (in your own home) to enjoy it with both joy-cons, which is ridiculous. By the way, when I said "trainer battles," I actually meant "wild battles." That was a mistake. The question is: which remake is the worst? Yet, you didn't list anything that Pokémon Let's Go brought to the table, at least from a gameplay perspective.

    Let's Go's gameplay was built for a different audience that would appreciate that gameplay. If you didn't like it, that's fine, it wasn't built for you. It was built for a PoGo audience that wanted to focus more on catching Pokemon and the occasional battle, you're a person heavily invested in the competitive scene, the game was quite made for an audience that's can very well be describe as the polar opposite of your playing style.

    Wild battles are not exactly an aspect of Pokemon I find myself caring about, and more often than not they're nuisances rather than something positive to me. Just another example of how opinion can change from person to person.

    When people ask a question about what remade game is "the worst," I expect others to answer the question by sharing their experiences with the game and mentioning what they enjoyed the most about it compared to the others. Mentioning that the game simply "does what it set out to do" does not relate to why you enjoyed playing it more than Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen, or Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire.

    The type of analysis you're mentioning is fundamentally rooted on what you like, which is one way of doing media analysis, and one that is more useful if your goal is to recommend a game for example.

    That is, however, not the only type of analysis. There are many other things you can talk about: art differences, what were the game goals, technical aspects, a11y concerns, and so on. I'm not concerned about "do I like it" analysis.

    By your logic, you can say that everything is a "good game" for accomplishing what it sets out to do because practically every game appeals to someone.
    First of all, there are games that don't accomplish what they set out to do for a variety of reasons. A Pokemon game is fundamentally made to be a product and in that case appealing to a big audience is what it set out to do. LGPE in particular managed to cater to its audience in a very technically and aesthetically competent way, and so I have no problems saying that it was a good game. It completed its purpose, it looks pretty, it serves as a springboard for a lot of art and content and stuff like that from different people, and impacted people in a way that many projects dream of ever achieving.

    Yet, it explains nothing about what makes the gameplay more enjoyable than the other games it's being compared to. It depends on how you define "bad," as "bad" isn't an objective term. Many people do define things that they dislike as bad. In your analogy, saying that soccer isn't bad simply because it's the most popular sport in the world isn't relevant to why you find the game of soccer to be better than other sports. Saying something is popular implies that a large number of people enjoy it, but it says nothing about your own feelings about it. For example, for me, soccer is horrible because they very rarely score points. I value frequent, non-stop scoring in sports, which is why basketball is my favorite sport. If I said that basketball is great because it's popular, that says nothing about why I think the sport itself is great when watching it compared to others. Thus, I'm curious to know: what is it about playing the game that you find more enjoyable than the other remakes?

    So you completely missed my point then. OK. The point I was making was "Me not liking something doesn't make the game bad, it just means I don't like it."

    No matter the reasons I love or hate a game or a sport, all they can ever say is "I love / hate this", it doesn't imply the game is "bad" unless you're explicitly defining bad as "stuff I don't like" which is not a definition I'm using, and is not a definition I'm willing to engage with.

    I'm more interested in discussing the game's financial impact, cultural impact, aesthetics, how it interacts with the game it's trying to remake, technical competence, how it implements its iteration of the formula, etc. "Whether I liked it or not" is not even attempting to address the bias. You can do it if you want, but it's not the type of analysis I want to do.

    I disagree. Sure, I get that the story is very similar to Pokémon Yellow, but the game itself is practically nothing like Pokémon Yellow in the grand scheme of things because they added completely different characters, features, and a ton of new content. At that point, it might as well just be considered its own standalone game rather than a remake. Remastered games are games that are simply given an upgrade with graphics and sometimes the soundtrack. Oftentimes, developers just edit the existing code rather than making a new game from scratch when remastering a game. For example, a game like LA Noire was remastered when it was released for the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 because all they did was touch up the graphics, but a game like Spyro Reignited Trilogy is a remake because they made the three Spyro games from the PlayStation 1 from scratch. Yet, despite that, it's the same game with practically the same script and everything, with only a few teenie-tiny changes here and there. Let's Go is a teenie-tiny change from Yellow; it's a huge change.

    Ok, disagree then. I'm not interested in arguing about whether they're remakes or not.

    Either way, now I see that you finally gave a somewhat clearer reason as to why you consider the Sinnoh remakes bad. My question is, regardless of the fact that you feel the Sinnoh remakes didn't offer you a different experience, what is it exactly that makes Let's Go more enjoyable? Does gameplay not matter to you? Is simply having a different experience in a game enough to keep you entertained?
    This entire time I've said that liking something is not a necessary or sufficient criterion to something being good. Thinking it was good does not mean I necessarily enjoyed it. You can think something's good and not like it and you can think something's bad and like it.

    Videogames are art, and part of being art is that "I like it" or "I enjoyed it" are not the only benchmarks you can use (and indeed are not the only benchmarks you should use in general).

    As an example, Pathologic is a game that's miserable to play, but that feeling of misery is intentional, reflected into the story and makes the overall experience of that game be what it is. If Pathologic had better gameplay it would be a worse game overall, because the mechanics would clash with the story.

    A piece of art that gives a different perspective into the same theme of a previous one is, in my opinion, intrinsically more valuable as a tool of expression than one that just copies the same beats with minor differences - at least in a professional level. Even if it's jankier, or uglier, or whatever, we learned something about the creative team, ourselves, the audience and the universe and perhaps more importantly, we tried something new and something different.

    LGPE is a good game that leans into the experimental side. And I think it's a good game for that, it has merit to it, and just as I wouldn't say, throw away Mario 2 or Zelda 2 which are both vastly different than their predecessors from their respective canons, I can't say I think the Pokemon franchise would be better off without LGPE. At a minimum, without LGPE there wouldn't be PLA, and without either it'd be longer until we get something like SV.

    I just want to hear more about why you enjoy the Pokémon Let's Go series the most. I'm just interested in learning about how someone can enjoy something so horrible, which might give me a new perspective on the matter.
    Then you might want to read what I said more closely because I explicitly said SV are my favorite games in the franchise and that LGPE aren't even games I'd necessarily recommend. They're not the games I enjoy the most.

    Either way, the answer is simple: different people have different tastes and just because you think something's horrible it doesn't mean other people think the same thing. There is nothing more to understand or say here.

    Like, how are the Sinnoh remakes "bland and dispensable?"
    Because they don't bring something new in the way that other remakes did. They're faithful to a fault in a way that doesn't serve it well, and they're faithful to something that's not that far away from the current time so it's not even like it smoothed a lot of warts or something like that.

    In fact, by introducing controversial mechanics like forced Exp Share, affection mechanics and the lack of Platinum add-ons, a lot of people felt that their overall experience was worse. The graphical change was, in my opinion, poorly done, unimaginative at best, and ridiculous at worse (see floating snakes and scale issues).

    With the advent of Pokemon Home and the later release of PLA 2 months later, even the argument of "well, at least it will make more Pokemon available without having to resort to hardware that's 2 generations old" fell flat.

    (And these are all things I have said before in this very thread)

    While I think RBY are still good and fun games in the context of my niche subculture, I would still say FRLG is the definitive Kanto experience for general audiences (with LGPE being a diversion I think is worthwhile seeing at least once, even if not necessarily playing it).

    I can't say the same about BDSP. I still think Platinum is the definitive Sinnoh experience and would say BDSP is a decent alternative if you don't have access to Platinum.
     
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    Never played LGPE because I think they're the worst based on what I've seen about them.

    Maybe if I did I would enjoy them more than I suppose, but I highly doubt that'll ever happen since I'm very sick of Kanto and the original 151 at this point.

    Other than that, FRLG were nice and much needed remakes for its time, but too archaic to play these days. I could endure the lack of Fairies and the Gen 2-5 type chart, but the lack of Physical/Special split is just too much. There are tons of rom hacks & fan games that surpass vanilla FRLG in every way.

    Wow that's surprising. Are people *that* bothered by the lack of physical/special split? Maybe I'm not because I grew up with gen 3 as my first game, but I don't understand why it's such a big problem.

    Let's Go's gameplay was built for a different audience that would appreciate that gameplay. If you didn't like it, that's fine, it wasn't built for you. It was built for a PoGo audience that wanted to focus more on catching Pokemon and the occasional battle, you're a person heavily invested in the competitive scene, the game was quite made for an audience that's can very well be describe as the polar opposite of your playing style.

    Wild battles are not exactly an aspect of Pokemon I find myself caring about, and more often than not they're nuisances rather than something positive to me. Just another example of how opinion can change from person to person.



    The type of analysis you're mentioning is fundamentally rooted on what you like, which is one way of doing media analysis, and one that is more useful if your goal is to recommend a game for example.

    That is, however, not the only type of analysis. There are many other things you can talk about: art differences, what were the game goals, technical aspects, a11y concerns, and so on. I'm not concerned about "do I like it" analysis.


    First of all, there are games that don't accomplish what they set out to do for a variety of reasons. A Pokemon game is fundamentally made to be a product and in that case appealing to a big audience is what it set out to do. LGPE in particular managed to cater to its audience in a very technically and aesthetically competent way, and so I have no problems saying that it was a good game. It completed its purpose, it looks pretty, it serves as a springboard for a lot of art and content and stuff like that from different people, and impacted people in a way that many projects dream of ever achieving.



    So you completely missed my point then. OK. The point I was making was "Me not liking something doesn't make the game bad, it just means I don't like it."

    No matter the reasons I love or hate a game or a sport, all they can ever say is "I love / hate this", it doesn't imply the game is "bad" unless you're explicitly defining bad as "stuff I don't like" which is not a definition I'm using, and is not a definition I'm willing to engage with.

    I'm more interested in discussing the game's financial impact, cultural impact, aesthetics, how it interacts with the game it's trying to remake, technical competence, how it implements its iteration of the formula, etc. "Whether I liked it or not" is not even attempting to address the bias. You can do it if you want, but it's not the type of analysis I want to do.



    Ok, disagree then. I'm not interested in arguing about whether they're remakes or not.


    This entire time I've said that liking something is not a necessary or sufficient criterion to something being good. Thinking it was good does not mean I necessarily enjoyed it. You can think something's good and not like it and you can think something's bad and like it.

    Videogames are art, and part of being art is that "I like it" or "I enjoyed it" are not the only benchmarks you can use (and indeed are not the only benchmarks you should use in general).

    As an example, Pathologic is a game that's miserable to play, but that feeling of misery is intentional, reflected into the story and makes the overall experience of that game be what it is. If Pathologic had better gameplay it would be a worse game overall, because the mechanics would clash with the story.

    A piece of art that gives a different perspective into the same theme of a previous one is, in my opinion, intrinsically more valuable as a tool of expression than one that just copies the same beats with minor differences - at least in a professional level. Even if it's jankier, or uglier, or whatever, we learned something about the creative team, ourselves, the audience and the universe and perhaps more importantly, we tried something new and something different.

    LGPE is a good game that leans into the experimental side. And I think it's a good game for that, it has merit to it, and just as I wouldn't say, throw away Mario 2 or Zelda 2 which are both vastly different than their predecessors from their respective canons, I can't say I think the Pokemon franchise would be better off without LGPE. At a minimum, without LGPE there wouldn't be PLA, and without either it'd be longer until we get something like SV.


    Then you might want to read what I said more closely because I explicitly said SV are my favorite games in the franchise and that LGPE aren't even games I'd necessarily recommend. They're not the games I enjoy the most.

    Either way, the answer is simple: different people have different tastes and just because you think something's horrible it doesn't mean other people think the same thing. There is nothing more to understand or say here.


    Because they don't bring something new in the way that other remakes did. They're faithful to a fault in a way that doesn't serve it well, and they're faithful to something that's not that far away from the current time so it's not even like it smoothed a lot of warts or something like that.

    In fact, by introducing controversial mechanics like forced Exp Share, affection mechanics and the lack of Platinum add-ons, a lot of people felt that their overall experience was worse. The graphical change was, in my opinion, poorly done, unimaginative at best, and ridiculous at worse (see floating snakes and scale issues).

    With the advent of Pokemon Home and the later release of PLA 2 months later, even the argument of "well, at least it will make more Pokemon available without having to resort to hardware that's 2 generations old" fell flat.

    (And these are all things I have said before in this very thread)

    While I think RBY are still good and fun games in the context of my niche subculture, I would still say FRLG is the definitive Kanto experience for general audiences (with LGPE being a diversion I think is worthwhile seeing at least once, even if not necessarily playing it).

    I can't say the same about BDSP. I still think Platinum is the definitive Sinnoh experience and would say BDSP is a decent alternative if you don't have access to Platinum.

    I will be honest and say that I'm currently obsessed with Brilliant Diamond. I love the game. It's identical to Diamond and Pearl, and I am generally not a proponent of the general exp. share, but I just adore these games still. They're a ton of fun for me to play. I loved Platinum too and I do think that they're the best out of all gen IV games, but Brilliant Diamond is somewhere in my personal top along with the other gen IV and III games.
     
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    Wow that's surprising. Are people *that* bothered by the lack of physical/special split? Maybe I'm not because I grew up with gen 3 as my first game, but I don't understand why it's such a big problem.

    It's because the balance was a mess that ruined plenty of Pokémon.

    Like physical Water types such as Kingler, Feraligatr or Crawdaunt being garbage, because they had nothing to use their superior Attack for, and because the two Water type's weaknesses came from Special moves. Special Water types like Vaporeon were objectively superior by far.

    Or Shadow Ball introduced as a physical move when the only two Ghost lines that existed were Special attackers.

    Or basically every Gen 1-3 Dark type that wasn't Houndoom ruined because they were all better as physical attackers but Dark moves were Special. Look at Sneasel, or Absol being a Disaster Pokémon, literally.

    Or the typical high Defense of Ground types usually wasted since all moves Ground is weak to were Special anyway.

    I played Gen 1-3 games as well, and I consider the Physical/Special split one of the most important upgrades. I mean, Pokémon was never a perfectly balanced game, and it doesn't have to be, but at least since the Split things started making a lot more sense.
     
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