4th Gen What was with DP's Pokédex?

[BettyNewbie]

Recently in my discussions with others, this subject has been coming up, and we always come to the same conclusion: Diamond and Pearl had a really terrible Regional Dex.

First of all, I don't know why GF chose to return to a Dex of 151 for Sinnoh to begin with. It's very hard to have good diversity with a Dex that small (even Kanto was overloaded with Poison/Water/Normal and starving for Ghost/Dragon/Dark/Steel), and it's even less excusable when the National Dex is nearly 500 (as it was at the time).

To make matters worse, DP's Dex didn't even include all of the Pokémon that were introduced in Gen 4! And, I'm not just talking about Legendaries, but normal Pokémon like Gallade, Yanmega, and Mamoswine. Even if they were new Evolutions of older Pokémon, they were still new Pokémon, which is what DP were supposed to be promoting.

But, worst of all was the complete lack of type diversity. As bad as Kanto was, it had nothing on DP Sinnoh.

You expect certain types like Ghost and Dragon to be rare (for better or worse), and while the latter, at least, was also very rare in Sinnoh, another type that you wouldn't expect to be "rare" was also similarly scarce--Fire.

Infernape and Rapidash. That was it as far as Fire types went, and one of those was a Starter. Rather insultingly, these games also introduced the first Fire type Elite Four member, and yet, he couldn't even have a team that was mostly Fire, let alone a full Fire team. What the hell, GF?

Of course, some have argued that Fire types being rare in Sinnoh made sense because Sinnoh was supposed to be a cold region. The PCs both wore scarves, and many areas were covered in snow. So, that meant we must've gotten a lot of Ice types to make up for the lack of Fire, then, right?

Nope. Abomasnow and Weavile, and that's it. Yup, in this "cold" region, Ice was just as non-existent as Fire. That's why the games' Ice Gym Leader had a use a Medicham of all things to fill out her team.

In fact, only one significant NPC after Byron had a monotype team--Lucian. The tiny Dex had just enough Psychic types (even without Gallade) to give him a full team (albeit, with some really terrible Pokémon like Mr. Mime and Girafarig). The rest all had to use Pokémon of other types to fill slots without resorting to dupes or NFEs (with Volkner and the aforementioned Flint being the very worst examples).

Well, what type was the Sinnoh Dex plentiful in? Water, of course. Everyone's favorite Repel-wasters, Tentacool and Wingull, returned with a vengeance, and for whatever reason, GF thought the game just wouldn't have been "complete" without the likes of Magikarp/Gyarados, Psyduck/Golduck, Goldeen/Seaking, Barboach/Whiscash, Wooper/Quagsire, and Azurill/Marill/Azumarill. Looking at that Dex, you would've thought that Sinnoh was as water-logged as Hoenn. (In reality, it only had a few Water routes.)

There was plenty of Normal, as well. Many of the new Pokémon were Normal types (including one that combined Normal with the games' other favorite type), and Girafarig, Cleffa/Clefairy/Clefable (Normal types at the time), and Hoothoot/Noctowl were also all brought back for some reason.

Now, DP's Dex did have one big gameplay bonus--It made certain Gym Leaders and E4 Members harder than they would've been. Because many of them were using Pokémon of different types, you couldn't as easily beat them just by exploiting one major weakness. But, this was almost a kind of Fake Difficulty, as the only reason those trainers were like that in the first place was because of the tiny, limited Regional Dex.

Thankfully, Platinum came along and fixed Sinnoh's Dex, expanding it to 210 and adding more of the types that were scarce in DP (as well as the Gen 4 Pokémon that were missing in DP). But, this is a fix that should've never been necessary to begin with. Why did DP have such an awful Dex? How did you cope with it? Are you afraid that eventual Gen 4 remakes will reuse DP's Dex over Platinum's?

 

[Pendraflare]

This was definitely something worthy of mention. I didn't have too much variety in between my playthroughs of DP, as there wasn't that much I found exciting to use. And if they do make remakes of DP I would hope they go with the Pokédex from Platinum instead, mainly because HGSS had Mamoswine, Ambipom, Tangrowth and Lickilicky, while ORAS had the full evolution lines of the Pokémon present with ones such as Gallade and Roserade.

 

[BettyNewbie]

And if they do make remakes of DP I would hope they go with the Pokédex from Platinum instead, mainly because HGSS had Mamoswine, Ambipom, Tangrowth and Lickilicky, while ORAS had the full evolution lines of the Pokémon present with ones such as Gallade and Roserade.

Yeah, that would be the logical thing to do. I know most people would definitely want the Gym Leaders (Candice and Volkner, at least) and E4 Members to have their Platinum teams, and there truly wasn't anything good or logical about DP's tiny Dex. There's nothing fun about being all but forced to pick the Fire starter because the only other alternative is Rapidash. :rolleyes2:

After how ORAS were handled, though, I do fear that Platinum will be largely ignored in DP's remakes, which could include the Platinum Dex and Gym Leader/E4 teams. I know how much Sinnoh fans would hate that. :(

 

[Cerberus87]

First of all, I don't know why GF chose to return to a Dex of 151 for Sinnoh to begin with. It's very hard to have good diversity with a Dex that small (even Kanto was overloaded with Poison/Water/Normal and starving for Ghost/Dragon/Dark/Steel), and it's even less excusable when the National Dex is nearly 500 (as it was at the time).

Betty, certain types are supposed to be rarer than others. Water being the most common makes sense because aquatic life is much more varied than terrestrial life. Dragon, Ghost and Steel are all still pretty rare, and Dragon is overinflated by the abundance of Dragon-type legendaries, so in reality there are still few Dragon-type Pokémon and, given their power, a regional Dex should feature few of them.

DP was a bit of a transitional game. They gave us a poor 150 Sinnoh Dex, but you could get certain new evolutions in the postgame, and they really wanted you to use the dual-slot mode to get more Pokémon, which was sadly restricted to the postgame too but could've been useful in the main game.

I think the biggest problem with the DP dex is that it's quite unorthodox. Most people like to have a Fire-type Pokémon, but if you don't choose Chimchar all you have is Ponyta. Some good Pokémon like Vespiquen, Snorlax and Heracross require Honey, and they're rare on top of that. There were a few unusual type combinations like Abomasnow's Grass/Ice, or Drifblim's Ghost/Flying. I can still build a good team in DP, but it requires more effort. Chimchar is probably the most efficient starter, because the other ones have good aternatives. I prefer Diamond because of Honchkrow. Murkrow is a nice alternative to Starly, because it starts very powerful (it's as strong as the grown up Swellow!) and doesn't need evolution until late in the game.

Personally the RSE Dex has 200 and I find it to be around the same level as the 150 Sinnoh Dex i.e. not very good. But it's possible to have a Pokédex with only 150. Kanto's Dex was excellent IMO. Heck, it's far easier to build a team in FRLG than in RSE and DP!

 

[BettyNewbie]

Betty, certain types are supposed to be rarer than others. Water being the most common makes sense because aquatic life is much more varied than terrestrial life. Dragon, Ghost and Steel are all still pretty rare, and Dragon is overinflated by the abundance of Dragon-type legendaries, so in reality there are still few Dragon-type Pokémon and, given their power, a regional Dex should feature few of them.

Then, why do the games even feature NPCs that specialize in Ghost and Dragon, then? Remember that having a diverse Dex isn't just about what YOU can use, but what the various NPCs (particularly, E4 members) can use, as well. Do you really think it was a GOOD thing for Agatha to be stuck with an awful mono-Poison team because there weren't enough Ghosts to give her a full team? Or, for both her and Lance to have to use dupes and NFEs to fill space?

There needs to be some Gameplay and Story Segregation applied. Storywise, it makes sense for there to be a million Water types and hardly any Dragon types, but it doesn't make for good gameplay. If you love Dragons and hate Water, you're out of luck.

But it's possible to have a Pokédex with only 150. Kanto's Dex was excellent IMO. Heck, it's far easier to build a team in FRLG than in RSE and DP!

If you love Poison types, that is. More than 1/5th of Kanto's Dex, whoo-hoo! :rolleyes2: It's also a great game for fans of Water and Normal.

The best "small" Dex was probably BW Unova. As controversial of a move as it was to restrict you to using only new Pokémon, they, at least, made an effort to give you more variety instead of just cramming the game full of Poison, Water, Normal, or whatever.

(The fact that Elesa is the only type specialist in BW who has dupes is a testament to this, although Drayden/Iris also have a NFE. Restricting the Gym Leaders to 3 Pokémon each and E4 members to 4 Pokémon each probably also helped in this regard, as it meant that they had less space to fill.)

But, even BW had its blind spots, such as Ice (only 3 fully-evolved ones, and they're all crappy mono-Ices) and ironically, Water (few good alternatives to Samurott). It's best to just have a large Dex with lots of variety.

 

[Cerberus87]

Then, why do the games even feature NPCs that specialize in Ghost and Dragon, then? Remember that having a diverse Dex isn't just about what YOU can use, but what the various NPCs (particularly, E4 members) can use, as well. Do you really think it was a GOOD thing for Agatha to be stuck with an awful mono-Poison team because there weren't enough Ghosts to give her a full team? Or, for both her and Lance to have to use dupes and NFEs to fill space?

There needs to be some Gameplay and Story Segregation applied. Storywise, it makes sense for there to be a million Water types and hardly any Dragon types, but it doesn't make for good gameplay. If you love Dragons and hate Water, you're out of luck.

Well it was better than repeating types altogether. Let me point out that the games you love the most (GSC) also had the same fault. Morty had Gastly, Haunter and Gengar. Clair had not only one or two, but THREE Dragonairs. In HGSS they gave her a Gyarados, but Gyarados is Dragon only in spirit. And Lance had three Dragonites, too.

Sinnoh introduced only one non-legendary Dragon-type, and it was enough, because Garchomp is overpowered anyway and even doubles as the best Ground-type. Unova had only two viable options for Dragon-types: Druddigon and Haxorus. Hydreigon is unusable in the main game since it evolves too late.

If you love Poison types, that is. More than 1/5th of Kanto's Dex, whoo-hoo! :rolleyes2: It's also a great game for fans of Water and Normal.

The best "small" Dex was probably BW Unova. As controversial of a move as it was to restrict you to using only new Pokémon, they, at least, made an effort to give you more variety instead of just cramming the game full of Poison, Water, Normal, or whatever.

(The fact that Elesa is the only type specialist in BW who has dupes is a testament to this, although Drayden/Iris also have a NFE. Restricting the Gym Leaders to 3 Pokémon each and E4 members to 4 Pokémon each probably also helped in this regard, as it meant that they had less space to fill.)

But, even BW had its blind spots, such as Ice (only 3 fully-evolved ones, and they're all crappy mono-Ices) and ironically, Water (few good alternatives to Samurott). It's best to just have a large Dex with lots of variety.

Most of the Poison-types in RBY were dual-types, so that's a non-issue. Only Arbok, Muk and Weezing remained Poison-types in their last stages.

Vanilluxe is pretty strong, and Seismitoad, Carracosta, Swanna and Jellicent are all great alternatives to Samurott, all of them dual-types, too.

Unova is probably the best example of a small Dex with good distribution, but that's obviously because it doesn't have as many Water-types as the Kanto Dex. Still, a lot of Kanto's Water-types are dual-typed, too. I just don't see what's so bad about the Kanto Dex, except for people who want to do monotype runs. I'm perfectly fine with having only Dragonite to choose from, since it's very powerful. The Unova E4 can't be compared with the others, because its members only have four Pokémon the first time around, so obviously it's easier to fill in the gaps. If Shauntal had to use five Pokémon, she'd be one Pokémon short of being able to have a mono team. The gym leaders in Unova also have less Pokémon than in other regions, and, even then, Drayden/Iris had to use a Fraxure in their teams, probably because the game wanted to preserve Deino for later.

 

[mew_nani]

I don't get much of the griping about there not being enough types in the local dexes and too much of other types. It doesn't make much sense to have equal amounts of each typing because it doesn't work like that in real life. If you're living in an island region of course there's gonna be a lot of Water type Pokemon, because you're next to their native habitat. Likewise unless you have an area where Ghost types would live, you're not gonna run into any. Making it so that each type appears in the same amount would mean making a cluttered region that looks more like a Minecraft world than real life, and that wouldn't make much sense, especially considering where that place is located in the world.

With that griping aside though, the Sinnoh Dex did have a lot of flaws. What doesn't make much sense is the fact you CAN catch Johto Pokemon there, and yet hardly any of them could be found anywhere. If you could catch them using the Pokeradar, why couldn't you just run into them normally? So what if there's some duplicate entries; if it makes sense for that Pokemon to be there, there's no point in leaving it out because it's not in the Regional Dex. There were also a large deficit of ice types in a region that had a huge snow covered area. They should have had a lot more. It doesn't make a lot of sense for there to be so few Ice types on an island that's no less than 30% snow. At least Platinum rectified some of this, but still it should have had more Ice types. The lack of Fire types was an issue too. It doesn't make a lot of sense that the only Fire-type you can obtain in the wild is Ponyta. I know it's rare to really run into Fire types outside of their perspective habitat but there are some Fire types that inhabit abandoned buildings and normally grassy areas like Vulpix and Growlithe. Why couldn't they have those?

I think the biggest insult to injury though is there being a huge island with a lot of non-native Pokemon, including some types not normally available. They should have had some of those Pokemon on the mainland too.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Well it was better than repeating types altogether.

Well, Agatha basically was a repeated type specialist, because her team was mono-Poison, not mono-Ghost... Even though she was supposed to be a Ghost user. :rolleyes2:

(And, even worse, it included dupes (Gengar), NFEs (Haunter and later, Golbat), and a weakling (Arbok)--The three things that *no* good E4 team should have.)

At least, Flint's team was fixed in Platinum. Agatha got no such saving grace, not even in the FRLG rematch.

Let me point out that the games you love the most (GSC) also had the same fault. Morty had Gastly, Haunter and Gengar. Clair had not only one or two, but THREE Dragonairs. In HGSS they gave her a Gyarados, but Gyarados is Dragon only in spirit. And Lance had three Dragonites, too.

So, what? Just because somebody likes a game doesn't mean that they can't criticize its flaws. The Ghost and Dragon selection was pretty awful in GSC, too, and it certainly made all three of them (especially Morty and Lance) far easier than they should've been.

In fact, it took all the way until Fantina in Platinum for us to have a Ghost specialist who had a full team without dupes, NFEs, or other types. Dragon was even worse, not seeing a true type specialist (ie. full team, no dupes/NFEs/other types) until Drayden in B2W2.

Sinnoh introduced only one non-legendary Dragon-type, and it was enough, because Garchomp is overpowered anyway and even doubles as the best Ground-type. Unova had only two viable options for Dragon-types: Druddigon and Haxorus. Hydreigon is unusable in the main game since it evolves too late.

Sinnoh didn't have any Dragon specialists, so its lack of Dragons wasn't as much of an issue. In BW Unova, on the other hand, it did cause issues, as it forced Drayden/Iris to use a NFE to fill space.

Most of the Poison-types in RBY were dual-types, so that's a non-issue. Only Arbok, Muk and Weezing remained Poison-types in their last stages.

A large proportion of which were either Grass (Venusaur/Vileplume/Victreebel) or Bugs (Beedrill/Venomoth), of which only Venusaur was really any good (and maybe, Victreebel in Blue and Yellow).

In fact, very few of those oodles of Poison types were even "above average," battle-wise. Pretty much just Venusaur and the Nidos. Maybe, Gengar if you can deal with the lack of STAB. (And, Victreebel if it's old school Blue or Yellow.) That is really bad game design, to have a type be so dominant, yet so full of useless, underpowered Pokémon. (Especially in comparison to its two biggest weaknesses.)

Vanilluxe is pretty strong, and Seismitoad, Carracosta, Swanna and Jellicent are all great alternatives to Samurott, all of them dual-types, too.

Vanilluxe is crap--No resistances/loads of weaknesses, average stats, and bad movepool. Seismitoad also has average stats and a poor movepool (one of the few Water types to not get Ice attacks), Carracosta has a bad typing and is a slow Physical attacker, Swanna has a poor typing and mediocre stats, and Jellicent is defensive. Samurott's far from the greatest, but it's still more usable than those.

Still, a lot of Kanto's Water-types are dual-typed, too. I just don't see what's so bad about the Kanto Dex, except for people who want to do monotype runs.

You're just a fan of Poison, Water, and Normal types. {XD}

I'm perfectly fine with having only Dragonite to choose from, since it's very powerful.

Take a look at Lance's RBY team and think again. Poor guy had to use NFE dupes to fill space. -_-

The Unova E4 can't be compared with the others, because its members only have four Pokémon the first time around, so obviously it's easier to fill in the gaps. If Shauntal had to use five Pokémon, she'd be one Pokémon short of being able to have a mono team. The gym leaders in Unova also have less Pokémon than in other regions, and, even then, Drayden/Iris had to use a Fraxure in their teams, probably because the game wanted to preserve Deino for later.

Then, maybe they should redo other regions to work the same way if they're not going to give each type specialist enough to have a good team. ORAS certainly would've benefited from it. (Especially, Phoebe and Glacia.)

 

[blue]

Looking at the list of Pokemon available on the Regional Dex for DP is actually quite astonishing. It definitely seems like they just randomly threw a group of 151 Pokemon together from different Regions, lacks type diversity for sure. When you compare to how B2W2 had the Dex, that was way better with over double the amount of Mons available. Platinum slightly improved on this, but I'd definitely say this is one of the downfalls of the Gen IV games.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Looking at the list of Pokemon available on the Regional Dex for DP is actually quite astonishing. It definitely seems like they just randomly threw a group of 151 Pokemon together from different Regions, lacks type diversity for sure. When you compare to how B2W2 had the Dex, that was way better with over double the amount of Mons available. Platinum slightly improved on this, but I'd definitely say this is one of the downfalls of the Gen IV games.

Tell me about it. Forget the lack of Fire types, what about the lack of Ice types? Sinnoh was supposed to be a cold region, so why did it have so few Ice types? And, it wasn't anywhere close to being 70% Water like Hoenn, so why did it need all of those Water types? (None of which were even Water/Ices like Cloyster or Walrein, which would've, at least, made the situation a little better.) Why did Sinnoh need the likes of Psyduck, Goldeen, Quagsire, and Marill so badly?

I know that Water has always been the games' most common type, but that doesn't mean that it has to be the dominant type in every Regional Dex. (Something that had the unintended effect of obsoleting Water starters, as it made them more easily replaceable than Grass and Fire starters.) Luckily, GF seemed to have learned their lesson with Unova and Kalos, which weren't nearly as infested with Water types as previous Gens were.

 

[mew_nani]

Tell me about it. Forget the lack of Fire types, what about the lack of Ice types? Sinnoh was supposed to be a cold region, so why did it have so few Ice types? And, it wasn't anywhere close to being 70% Water like Hoenn, so why did it need all of those Water types? (None of which were even Water/Ices like Cloyster or Walrein, which would've, at least, made the situation a little better.) Why did Sinnoh need the likes of Psyduck, Goldeen, Quagsire, and Marill so badly?

I know that Water has always been the games' most common type, but that doesn't mean that it has to be the dominant type in every Regional Dex. (Something that had the unintended effect of obsoleting Water starters, as it made them more easily replaceable than Grass and Fire starters.) Luckily, GF seemed to have learned their lesson with Unova and Kalos, which weren't nearly as infested with Water types as previous Gens were.

Well all of the regions bordered the sea and Sinnoh in particular had a lot of lakes and rivers. Psyduck, Goldeen, Quagsire and Marill happen to live in lakes and rivers, so there you go. Unova and Kalos were partially landlocked and thus weren't exposed to the sea as much as Kanto, Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh and thus didn't need as many Water types. But the lack of Ice Pokemon bothers me a bunch. At least they should have had some Pokemon that lived in mountainous regions, or Delibird or Snorunt or Swinub or Dewgong or something other than Sneasel and Snowver. It just makes no sense a region that's 30% snow has so few Ice types in it. At least the abundance of Water types is justified because Sinnoh is completely surrounded by water and has so many lakes and rivers within it, but we still need more Ice types. Come to think of it it sorta bothers me there's not more Ghost types bordering Sendoff Spring. The place borders the Torn World; you'd figure there'd be kitsune and wayward spirits out the wazoo.

 

[BettyNewbie]

Well all of the regions bordered the sea and Sinnoh in particular had a lot of lakes and rivers. Psyduck, Goldeen, Quagsire and Marill happen to live in lakes and rivers, so there you go.

Which is why Buizel, Finneon, and Shellos existed. They also already brought back Magikarp and Feebas, along with everyone's favorite Repel-wasters. That was enough. If they wanted more Water, they should've used Shellder, Seel, or Spheal (ie. much-needed Ice types) instead of these generic, redundant mono-Waters.

But the lack of Ice Pokemon bothers me a bunch. At least they should have had some Pokemon that lived in mountainous regions, or Delibird or Snorunt or Swinub or Dewgong or something other than Sneasel and Snowver. It just makes no sense a region that's 30% snow has so few Ice types in it. At least the abundance of Water types is justified because Sinnoh is completely surrounded by water and has so many lakes and rivers within it, but we still need more Ice types. Come to think of it it sorta bothers me there's not more Ghost types bordering Sendoff Spring. The place borders the Torn World; you'd figure there'd be kitsune and wayward spirits out the wazoo.

While Sinnoh was surrounded by Water, it still didn't have nearly as much as, say, Hoenn, so the Dex didn't need to be 60% Water (especially when most of those Water types were neither dual-type nor from Gen 4). Sinnoh's biggest defining trait was that it was cold, so Ice should've been far more prominent. Why didn't they put the Piloswine, Snorunt, and Eevee lines in DP, all of whom received new Ice Evolutions in the Gen? Some older Ice lines from Gens 1-3 would've been nice, too.

Also, good call on Sendoff Spring. Ghost seems to constantly get shafted in the games. :(

 

[mew_nani]

Which is why Buizel, Finneon, and Shellos existed. They also already brought back Magikarp and Feebas, along with everyone's favorite Repel-wasters. That was enough. If they wanted more Water, they should've used Shellder, Seel, or Spheal (ie. much-needed Ice types) instead of these generic, redundant mono-Waters.

If you're living near the sea what kind of animals are you gonna run into? Crabs, seagulls, jellyfish, all sorts of fish... Sinnoh is an island surrounded by deep sea. You might hate the fact you can run into Wingull and Tentacool, but given you're in a sea environment, and seagulls can go several miles inland, it's inevitable you're gonna run into them. Though I do agree we badly needed some seals, at least near Snowpoint. After all, Snowpoint is near the sea, and you can run into Seel and Spheal outside of the water. (Also as a slightly off-topic note they're not ALL pure Water typed. Quagsire in particular is part Ground as well as part Water.)

While Sinnoh was surrounded by Water, it still didn't have nearly as much as, say, Hoenn, so the Dex didn't need to be 60% Water (especially when most of those Water types were neither dual-type nor from Gen 4). Sinnoh's biggest defining trait was that it was cold, so Ice should've been far more prominent. Why didn't they put the Piloswine, Snorunt, and Eevee lines in DP, all of whom received new Ice Evolutions in the Gen? Some older Ice lines from Gens 1-3 would've been nice, too.

Also, good call on Sendoff Spring. Ghost seems to constantly get shafted in the games. :(

Well keep in mind, not only was Sinnoh surrounded by water on all sides, it also had a grand total of 3 large lakes and no less than three rivers, which is quite a lot of water for a region. It also had two large swamps, and even though there were two water routes a lot of the routes we traverse in the game happen to be located near or right next to the sea. Heck a lot of the towns are located right next to the dang water; you can go to the edge and see the dang ocean. You can observe this in Snowpoint, Veilstone, Canalave, Pastoria, Sandgem, and Sunnyshore, and Floaroma, Eterna, Hearthome and Celestic are near rivers which still leave you exposed to environments Water type Pokemon live in. Hoenn has more towns exposed to the sea and more water routes, but only one river, and a lot of the cities are pretty inland, preventing you from running into Water types. Sinnoh just happens to have the majority of its routes and cities near a body of water, and this makes running into more Water-typed Pokemon than necessary inevitable.

But really, I can't say it enough; Sinnoh badly needed more Ice types, and why they didn't bother to add any is unknown to me. You'd figure we'd be running into Lapras and Seel and Spheal and Snorunt and Swinub and other Ice types both within the mountain and near Snowpoint but nah, we gotta run into loads of Bronzong and Bronzor instead. The place should be a treasure trove of Ice types, considering besides Unova it's pretty much the coldest region around. Same deal goes for Ghost types; there's an entire route that randomly appears and vanishes, and you'd assume supernatural entities from all around would be drawn here, especially with the fact that Giratina the Phantom King happens to live in a world connected right there. And there's also a tower, and a haunted mansion in Eterna Forest that for some reason seriously lacks Ghost Pokemon and also Pokemon that would be right at home living in an abandoned building, like Rattata and Vulpix. Sinnoh should be the ghostliest region around, what with it being right next to the dimensional nexus between Heaven, Earth and the Torn World. Maybe they didn't want to add any of the older Pokemon because Game Freak figured the kids could just import them in from Emerald and FireRed?

 

[Cerberus87]

Well, Agatha basically was a repeated type specialist, because her team was mono-Poison, not mono-Ghost... Even though she was supposed to be a Ghost user. :rolleyes2:

(And, even worse, it included dupes (Gengar), NFEs (Haunter and later, Golbat), and a weakling (Arbok)--The three things that *no* good E4 team should have.)

At least, Flint's team was fixed in Platinum. Agatha got no such saving grace, not even in the FRLG rematch.

Golbat learns Confuse Ray, making it similar to a Ghost. Arbok isn't that weak, it's better than Bruno's Onix, for example, and can paralyze with Glare.

Two Gengars isn't good for variety but they made Agatha harder, as Gengar isn't exactly easy to get rid of in RBY.

So, what? Just because somebody likes a game doesn't mean that they can't criticize its flaws. The Ghost and Dragon selection was pretty awful in GSC, too, and it certainly made all three of them (especially Morty and Lance) far easier than they should've been.

In fact, it took all the way until Fantina in Platinum for us to have a Ghost specialist who had a full team without dupes, NFEs, or other types. Dragon was even worse, not seeing a true type specialist (ie. full team, no dupes/NFEs/other types) until Drayden in B2W2.

At the point in the game you face him, Morty isn't easy. You have no Dark-types (unless you somehow evolved Eevee), and using Gastly against him is difficult since Ghost is weak to itself. Having Misdreavus wouldn't have made Morty stronger... As Haunter is faster and hits harder.

Lance could've had Kingdra, but his team in GSC is a nod to RBY. It's almost the same, with the addition of Charizard. Three Dragonites are no joke if you don't have the correct moves.

Sinnoh didn't have any Dragon specialists, so its lack of Dragons wasn't as much of an issue. In BW Unova, on the other hand, it did cause issues, as it forced Drayden/Iris to use a NFE to fill space.

Drayden/Iris having Fraxure in BW was actually BETTER. Fraxure is stronger than Deino.

A large proportion of which were either Grass (Venusaur/Vileplume/Victreebel) or Bugs (Beedrill/Venomoth), of which only Venusaur was really any good (and maybe, Victreebel in Blue and Yellow).

In fact, very few of those oodles of Poison types were even "above average," battle-wise. Pretty much just Venusaur and the Nidos. Maybe, Gengar if you can deal with the lack of STAB. (And, Victreebel if it's old school Blue or Yellow.) That is really bad game design, to have a type be so dominant, yet so full of useless, underpowered Pokémon. (Especially in comparison to its two biggest weaknesses.)

Venusaur, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Vileplume (yes it's useful since it can sleep and has a relatively strong Grass move not dependent on crits), Victreebel, Gengar, Tentacruel, and maybe even Arbok (Glare and Wrap). Seriously, have you even played Stadium or something back in the day? Your "maybe" comment on Gengar kinda tells me you didn't. Gengar could sleep, confuse, was immune to the most common attacking type in the game, hits hard with Thunderbolt and Psychic, could one-shot Golem and Rhydon with Mega Drain... Gengar is one of the few Kanto Pokémon that has always been OU through the generations, and its RBY incarnation was no less deadly, even without the Ground immunity and STAB moves.

Vanilluxe is crap--No resistances/loads of weaknesses, average stats, and bad movepool. Seismitoad also has average stats and a poor movepool (one of the few Water types to not get Ice attacks), Carracosta has a bad typing and is a slow Physical attacker, Swanna has a poor typing and mediocre stats, and Jellicent is defensive. Samurott's far from the greatest, but it's still more usable than those.

Since when is 110 base Sp.Atk "average"?

Seismitoad gets STAB on Ground moves. Carracosta gets Aqua Jet to patch up its low Speed. Swanna, as a Flying-type, is better than the alternative Unfezant. Jellicent is superior to Samurott, with better typing. They're not all better than Samurott, but they're all decent alternatives and don't exactly force you to choose Oshawott at the beginning. I've used Carracosta, Swanna and Jellicent and they were more than adequate for the game.

You're just a fan of Poison, Water, and Normal types. {XD}

Nope, my favorite types are Fire and Dark. I choose the Fire starter most of the time, so I haven't been affected by the lack of diversity in DP as much (even more so since I didn't play DP to the end). Although that is certainly one of DP's weak points. Rapidash isn't a terrible Pokémon for the story, though. In fact, Ponyta is an early bloomer and very strong at the beginning. I'd be fine with only one other alternative, provided it wasn't anything stupid like Magcargo or Torkoal.

Also, I don't mind not having any Dark-types to choose from in the Kanto games, as I understand why the game doesn't have any.

Take a look at Lance's RBY team and think again. Poor guy had to use NFE dupes to fill space. -_-

Which wasn't much of an issue. Dragonair isn't exactly powerful, but in RBY it had only one weakness, could paralyze, and had a varied movepool. Considering the things other E4 members had to use in the past to make up their ranks (Mightyena, Sableye, Dustox), Dragonair is a great Pokémon in comparison.

I'm surprised you don't complain about Misty's roster when RBY had a gazillion Water Pokémon to choose from... {XD} Then again, gym leaders, especially early ones, aren't always supposed to have completely balanced teams. Their first Pokémon are usually just a stepping stone for the player. She could've had a Shellder, for example, but Staryu fits her style better, and is much superior offensively.

Then, maybe they should redo other regions to work the same way if they're not going to give each type specialist enough to have a good team. ORAS certainly would've benefited from it. (Especially, Phoebe and Glacia.)

I have to agree with Shiny_Unown in that you don't seem to understand how remakes work. Having the same selection of Pokémon to choose from as in the original is an important part of a remake. Later remakes have only incorporated the new evolutions, and no more. Why do you think Routes 47 and 48 in HGSS have a similar lineup to earlier routes despite being completely new routes? They don't add anything that you weren't supposed to have at that point in GSC, for the sake of consistency and fidelity to the original game.

 

[Hikamaru]

This was always one of the most baffling things about D/P. It makes it always hard for me to get good enough coverage, and is pretty much the sole reason why I always choose Chimchar when I attempt to replay Diamond or Pearl, simply because I'd definitely not enjoy being stuck with a Ponyta.

And also, Pendraflare made a good point because if we got Sinnoh remakes anytime soon I really have to hope they can learn from how they improved Hoenn's Pokedex in OR/AS by at least remaking D/P but incorporating Platinum's Sinnoh Dex instead of Diamond & Pearl's.

The Pokedex issue was also to blame for several of Sinnoh's Gym Leaders and Elite Four not having teams completely made up of Pokemon of their specialized type, some notable examples being Flint (having a Steelix, Drifblim and Lopunny alongside only two Fire-types), Volkner (has only two Electric-types, with an Octillery and Ambipom thrown in), Candice (especially her Medicham, which doesn't fit well in an Ice-type team) and Aaron (has the Poison/Dark Drapion in a Bug-type team, but I guess the fact its pre-evo is Bug might have to do with it). Also, I can easily agree with who mentioned the Dex is mainly dominated by Water and Normal-types, leaving other types with little options until the postgame, along with leaving some of the new evolutions entirely out of the main story.

Game Freak have pretty much learned their lesson from these games and pretty much improved the way regional Dexes are handled in the future, such as the more recent generations being a bit kinder with type diversity in the regional Dex.

 

[BettyNewbie]

If you're living near the sea what kind of animals are you gonna run into? Crabs, seagulls, jellyfish, all sorts of fish... Sinnoh is an island surrounded by deep sea. You might hate the fact you can run into Wingull and Tentacool, but given you're in a sea environment, and seagulls can go several miles inland, it's inevitable you're gonna run into them. Though I do agree we badly needed some seals, at least near Snowpoint. After all, Snowpoint is near the sea, and you can run into Seel and Spheal outside of the water. (Also as a slightly off-topic note they're not ALL pure Water typed. Quagsire in particular is part Ground as well as part Water.)

Well keep in mind, not only was Sinnoh surrounded by water on all sides, it also had a grand total of 3 large lakes and no less than three rivers, which is quite a lot of water for a region. It also had two large swamps, and even though there were two water routes a lot of the routes we traverse in the game happen to be located near or right next to the sea. Heck a lot of the towns are located right next to the dang water; you can go to the edge and see the dang ocean. You can observe this in Snowpoint, Veilstone, Canalave, Pastoria, Sandgem, and Sunnyshore, and Floaroma, Eterna, Hearthome and Celestic are near rivers which still leave you exposed to environments Water type Pokemon live in. Hoenn has more towns exposed to the sea and more water routes, but only one river, and a lot of the cities are pretty inland, preventing you from running into Water types. Sinnoh just happens to have the majority of its routes and cities near a body of water, and this makes running into more Water-typed Pokemon than necessary inevitable.

Again, Gameplay and Story Segregation. Having a million generic Water types may make sense story-wise, but it makes for poor gameplay, especially when you're restricted to just 151 Dex slots. Not everyone wants to run mostly-Water teams, or constantly fight type specialists that can't actually use Pokémon of their type because those precious Dex slots are being used by Psyduck and Goldeen.

(Thank goodness GF, at least, had enough sense to not put a Dragon specialist in Sinnoh. Just imagine how horrible their team would've been, and it's something that even the Platinum expansion wouldn't have been able to fix.)

Maybe they didn't want to add any of the older Pokemon because Game Freak figured the kids could just import them in from Emerald and FireRed?

If that was their plan, then it completely backfired in November 2008. Now, there was an entire, steadily growing group of DS owners who had no means of completing the National Dex in DP.

(Which, sadly, may have been part of the reason for both Platinum's Dex expansion and HGSS being made. Before Platinum/HGSS, a large swath of Pokémon couldn't be obtained outside of RSE/FRLG/Colosseum/XD, which literally made completing the National Dex impossible for those with a DSi.)

Golbat learns Confuse Ray, making it similar to a Ghost. Arbok isn't that weak, it's better than Bruno's Onix, for example, and can paralyze with Glare.

If being able to learn Confuse Ray is the only criteria for being a "Ghost," then why not give her a Ninetales or Magmar, instead? They're not great, either, but they're stronger than Golbat (the thing got an evolution for a reason), and best of all, they're NOT Poison types!

You were clearly doing something wrong if you didn't instantly kill Arbok with Psychic/Earthquake/Dig. Even then, Glare has shaky accuracy, and Arbok's stats are poor. (Not a single one is higher than Base 85.)

And, yes, Bruno shouldn't have had Onix, either. If they didn't want to give him Primeape and Poliwrath for whatever reason, then, he should've gotten Rhydon and Golem, instead. He'd still be a pushover, but, at least, those two can actually hurt things.

Two Gengars isn't good for variety but they made Agatha harder, as Gengar isn't exactly easy to get rid of in RBY.

It had no STAB, and Psychic/Earthquake ran rampant.

At the point in the game you face him, Morty isn't easy. You have no Dark-types (unless you somehow evolved Eevee), and using Gastly against him is difficult since Ghost is weak to itself. Having Misdreavus wouldn't have made Morty stronger... As Haunter is faster and hits harder.

You forget that having nothing but the Gastly line made his gym weak to Psychic... And, you had access to a couple of good ones by that point. Even just a Kadabra could easily slice through that gym, and Shadow Ball wasn't nearly as scary when it was running off of Gengar's low Attack. Misdreavus, on the other hand, would've actually slowed a Psychic down. (Besides, it was a Gen 2 Pokémon, which is what GSC were supposed to be promoting.)

Lance could've had Kingdra, but his team in GSC is a nod to RBY. It's almost the same, with the addition of Charizard. Three Dragonites are no joke if you don't have the correct moves.

And, his RBY team was kind of lame to begin with.

When Ice Punch was a TM, and so many powerful Special Attackers could learn it... Yeah, those (underleveled) Dragonites were a joke. The same Kadabra (let alone Alakazam) that beat Morty could also beat Lance without hardly breaking a sweat. Again, Kingdra actually would've slowed it down, like you probably learned the hard way from Clair.

Drayden/Iris having Fraxure in BW was actually BETTER. Fraxure is stronger than Deino.

They could've fudged the numbers and given them Zweilous instead. (Hey, if Lance can have L47-50 Dragonites...) It's still a NFE, but at least, it's from a different family.

Venusaur, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Vileplume (yes it's useful since it can sleep and has a relatively strong Grass move not dependent on crits), Victreebel, Gengar, Tentacruel, and maybe even Arbok (Glare and Wrap).

Vileplume, Tentacruel, and (especially) Arbok were always crap, sorry. In fact, the Poison type, in general, always was. Back then, it was weak to the ever-broken Psychic type, and in later Gens, it suffered from poor offensive options (and to a lesser extent, Earthquake weakness). Only very recently with the addition of Fairies has it started to be salvaged, and even then, it's still mostly outclassed by Steel.

Seriously, have you even played Stadium or something back in the day? Your "maybe" comment on Gengar kinda tells me you didn't. Gengar could sleep, confuse, was immune to the most common attacking type in the game, hits hard with Thunderbolt and Psychic, could one-shot Golem and Rhydon with Mega Drain... Gengar is one of the few Kanto Pokémon that has always been OU through the generations, and its RBY incarnation was no less deadly, even without the Ground immunity and STAB moves.

EXCUSE ME, but I HAVE played Stadium, thank you very much, and Gengar was rarely on any of my teams (save for when I had to battle the Prime Cup Gambler). No, it wasn't terrible, but it was still outclassed by many things. (Namely, Psychic types.)

Since when is 110 base Sp.Atk "average"?

Ever since Power Creep started happening. It's not RBY anymore.

Seismitoad gets STAB on Ground moves. Carracosta gets Aqua Jet to patch up its low Speed. Swanna, as a Flying-type, is better than the alternative Unfezant. Jellicent is superior to Samurott, with better typing. They're not all better than Samurott, but they're all decent alternatives and don't exactly force you to choose Oshawott at the beginning. I've used Carracosta, Swanna and Jellicent and they were more than adequate for the game.
...
Rapidash isn't a terrible Pokémon for the story, though. In fact, Ponyta is an early bloomer and very strong at the beginning.

Just because something is "good enough for in-game" does not make it either good or fun to use. Most people don't want to forcibly use mediocre Pokémon and have a team that's less than full potential just because it's "in-game." All it does is fuel that "in-game team vs serious team" mentality that has ruined the games for many people.

Which wasn't much of an issue. Dragonair isn't exactly powerful, but in RBY it had only one weakness, could paralyze, and had a varied movepool. Considering the things other E4 members had to use in the past to make up their ranks (Mightyena, Sableye, Dustox), Dragonair is a great Pokémon in comparison.

And, it had no STAB, Blizzard was 90% accurate, and Ice Beam/Blizzard were among the most widely-distributed moves at the time. Even the weakest Ice attackers laughed at Dragonair.

I'm surprised you don't complain about Misty's roster when RBY had a gazillion Water Pokémon to choose from...

Then again, gym leaders, especially early ones, aren't always supposed to have completely balanced teams. Their first Pokémon are usually just a stepping stone for the player. She could've had a Shellder, for example, but Staryu fits her style better, and is much superior offensively.

It's not as important for early Gym Leaders to have strong, diverse teams as it is for later Gym Leaders and E4 members (who, surprise, are usually the ones who have trouble having full teams to begin with).

This was always one of the most baffling things about D/P. It makes it always hard for me to get good enough coverage, and is pretty much the sole reason why I always choose Chimchar when I attempt to replay Diamond or Pearl, simply because I'd definitely not enjoy being stuck with a Ponyta.

And also, Pendraflare made a good point because if we got Sinnoh remakes anytime soon I really have to hope they can learn from how they improved Hoenn's Pokedex in OR/AS by at least remaking D/P but incorporating Platinum's Sinnoh Dex instead of Diamond & Pearl's.

The Pokedex issue was also to blame for several of Sinnoh's Gym Leaders and Elite Four not having teams completely made up of Pokemon of their specialized type, some notable examples being Flint (having a Steelix, Drifblim and Lopunny alongside only two Fire-types), Volkner (has only two Electric-types, with an Octillery and Ambipom thrown in), Candice (especially her Medicham, which doesn't fit well in an Ice-type team) and Aaron (has the Poison/Dark Drapion in a Bug-type team, but I guess the fact its pre-evo is Bug might have to do with it). Also, I can easily agree with who mentioned the Dex is mainly dominated by Water and Normal-types, leaving other types with little options until the postgame, along with leaving some of the new evolutions entirely out of the main story.

Game Freak have pretty much learned their lesson from these games and pretty much improved the way regional Dexes are handled in the future, such as the more recent generations being a bit kinder with type diversity in the regional Dex.

I agree 100%. {:3} Having a good, diverse Dex isn't just about what you can put on your team, but also about what the important NPCs can use (even if DP, at least, handled the team filler a little better than RBY/GSC/RSE did) and even what Starter you pick. DP's Dex basically punished you for picking Turtwig or (especially) Piplup, which isn't even remotely "balanced" at all. (In fact, the overabundance of Water types in Gens 1-4, in general, made things unfair for Water Starters, as it made them more easily replaceable.)

 

[mew_nani]

Again, Gameplay and Story Segregation. Having a million generic Water types may make sense story-wise, but it makes for poor gameplay, especially when you're restricted to just 151 Dex slots. Not everyone wants to run mostly-Water teams, or constantly fight type specialists that can't actually use Pokémon of their type because those precious Dex slots are being used by Psyduck and Goldeen.

(Thank goodness GF, at least, had enough sense to not put a Dragon specialist in Sinnoh. Just imagine how horrible their team would've been, and it's something that even the Platinum expansion wouldn't have been able to fix.)

There's still options for people who don't want to run mostly Water types, but I do agree there is a critical shortage of types that should be in abundance like Psychic, Ghost and Ice. I think the main problem wasn't so much we have too many dang Water types (which is admittedly true,) but that the Dex is too small and Game Freak for some reason didn't think to put in enough of other types in. You could still have a reasonable amount of Water types and at the same time have other types, even Fire, that could still live there since their main habitat is urbanized areas, like Flareon, Vulpix, and Growlithe, and even mountainous areas. The main problem is the Dex is way too small for a region that with freaking Pokeradar enabled lets you run into far more Pokemon that for some reason were invisible to you without it. Why couldn't we run into Mareep in Valley Windworks in regular grass again? Also I notice in Gen 4 only 5 unique Fire type Pokemon were even made. Why? I understand Fire Pokemon don't want to live in areas that are damp and cold but there's still a good part of the region that is hospitable to them. Heck we have an iron forging factory, which you'd figure would attract at least some type of Fire Pokemon like Slugma.

If that was their plan, then it completely backfired in November 2008. Now, there was an entire, steadily growing group of DS owners who had no means of completing the National Dex in DP.

(Which, sadly, may have been part of the reason for both Platinum's Dex expansion and HGSS being made. Before Platinum/HGSS, a large swath of Pokémon couldn't be obtained outside of RSE/FRLG/Colosseum/XD, which literally made completing the National Dex impossible for those with a DSi.)

I think it partially was, because if you have a DS or DS lite you can put FireRed, LeafGreen, Emerald, Ruby and Sapphire in the GBA port and run into Pokemon you wouldn't otherwise. It was a bad plan to begin with, because even with all those games you'd still be lacking a few Johto Pokemon.

 

[BettyNewbie]

There's still options for people who don't want to run mostly Water types, but I do agree there is a critical shortage of types that should be in abundance like Psychic, Ghost and Ice. I think the main problem wasn't so much we have too many dang Water types (which is admittedly true,) but that the Dex is too small and Game Freak for some reason didn't think to put in enough of other types in. You could still have a reasonable amount of Water types and at the same time have other types, even Fire, that could still live there since their main habitat is urbanized areas, like Flareon, Vulpix, and Growlithe, and even mountainous areas. The main problem is the Dex is way too small for a region that with freaking Pokeradar enabled lets you run into far more Pokemon that for some reason were invisible to you without it. Why couldn't we run into Mareep in Valley Windworks in regular grass again? Also I notice in Gen 4 only 5 unique Fire type Pokemon were even made. Why? I understand Fire Pokemon don't want to live in areas that are damp and cold but there's still a good part of the region that is hospitable to them. Heck we have an iron forging factory, which you'd figure would attract at least some type of Fire Pokemon like Slugma.

That's what it really boils down to--151 is just too small. Even if you make an effort to evenly distribute types (as BW tried to do), it's just impossible to have truly good diversity with a Dex that small. (Especially, when the total National Dex count is more than three times that.)

Platinum, at least, fixed this by expanding the Dex to 210 and adding more underrepresented types, but it's a fix that shouldn't have been needed in the first place. Luckily, GF seems to have learned their lesson if the Unova and Kalos games are any indication; diversity is a good thing.

I think it partially was, because if you have a DS or DS lite you can put FireRed, LeafGreen, Emerald, Ruby and Sapphire in the GBA port and run into Pokemon you wouldn't otherwise. It was a bad plan to begin with, because even with all those games you'd still be lacking a few Johto Pokemon.

And, as I said, that was literally impossible for people with DSi's to do, which meant that they couldn't complete DP's National Dex. Platinum and especially, HGSS were a big utility for these people. (In fact, this, right here, is the biggest reason HGSS had Gifts and Events for the Kanto/Hoenn Starters, Mewtwo, the Bird Trio, and the Weather Trio, as well as the "Hoenn Sound" swarms; GF was trying to phase out the GBA games so DSi players weren't screwed out of completing the National Dex.)

Granted, I highly doubt that GF could predict in 2006 that Nintendo would eventually kill GBA compatibility, but it's something that they should've prepared for after what had happened just four years earlier with the GBA and GB/C. Plus, as you said, many Pokémon (especially those from Gen 2) were hard to obtain in the Gen 3 games (in many cases, needing to be transferred all the way from Colosseum/XD), so it wasn't a practical way to complete DP's Pokédex to begin with.

 

[Sun]

They were either holding back for Platinum at that time or they were simply nuts when they developed DP.

DP felt like a beta, an uncompleted game from upon first playthrough. Sadly, that feeling intensified when Pt came to life. :(

 

[BettyNewbie]

They were either holding back for Platinum at that time or they were simply nuts when they developed DP.

DP felt like a beta, an uncompleted game from upon first playthrough. Sadly, that feeling intensified when Pt came to life. :(

"Like a beta" is a pretty apt way of describing DP. Not only did their gameplay feel extremely incomplete, but they were also loaded with glitches, too. Were DP rushed out to release, by any chance? Because, I can't see how such broken games could've ever passed GF's standards by 2006.

Luckily, though, Platinum happened, and people got to experience Sinnoh without any of the things that held DP back. This was a Gen where a Third Version really WAS warranted over a sequel or prequel.