the Kalos League Hate

CidHazard

CidHazard

just a miserable pile of secrets
    • 582
    Posts
    8
    Years
    Looks like the common consensus in the site is that Ash losing the Kalos league is stupid story wise. But is it really?

    Most of the hate I think came from them trolling us with the previews and the title.

    Not trolling here. I do genuinely think that Satoshi/Ash losing especially considering the entirety of the Pokemon XY anime (Which of course includes the specials) is fine. For one Satoshi/Ash losing to someone like Alan and his Lizardon(A Pokemon who fought mega pokemon on a day to day basis and faced three legendary pokemon.) Second most of the Pokemon League is the Finale of the show after it nothing really happens, but now the team flare ark is the climax of the entire XY saga. If you look at how they've structured the XY&Z anime story their not building up ash as the champion of Kalos... But the Hero (Which is usually reserved for movies and specials that are non-cannon).

    I would like to hear you guys thoughts on this. P.S. Not spreading hate I just want to start a Discussion about why you really think its good or bad(or stupid).
     
    Last edited:
    The problem might have to do with the title at least a little bit, but really a lot of the rage stems from the fact that Ash just simply can't win a league to save his own life. Not because he isn't trying, or because his Pokemon aren't good enough, but because the writers and more specifically the producers just can't handle Ash beating a league that is shared jointly with the games.

    The reason for this I think is because the Pokemon anime is essentially one giant commercial for the games; it exists solely to get viewers to buy the games and to showcase brand new Pokemon introduced in them. That's all fine and good, but Ash is the main character in place of the male protagonist of each game duo, and he's taking up the journeys those characters would be taking if he wasn't there. The writers and producers find it easier to just have him continually losing the leagues in almost every region he travels to besides Orange Islands and moving continually to new ones than to have him winning a league. I don't know exactly why this is; perhaps it's the reason he's the same age he was when he left considering he's a major advertising tool to people who aren't already in the games who might be interested in getting into them, or perhaps the producers and writers just don't know how to have him champion and yet still have him traveling around the world, which doesn't make a lot of sense considering Red became the champion and given we find him in Johto he got to travel around still. Either way Ash will continually be beaten by people who get more powerful out of nowhere, or people who use legendaries, or whoever the writers decide gets to beat him this time so they can have him continue to roam around, use a new team of Pokemon to advertise the new games, and have Pikachu reset to low levels time and time again because if they didn't it would completely sweep every battle it ended up in.

    It's a fact that bothers me greatly, cause as it stands Ash can't win and since he loses his current companions each time he goes to a new region and has his current team boxed, he can't progress in his quest to be a Pokemon master and I can't get invested in it because it would be pointless to see him try and fail time and time again. Ash is clearly a stand in for the male protagonist of each game, so they should have just had Ash beat one league and let Ethan or Lucas or Calem or whoever take over and travel around and have a chance, but... eh... executives. Gotta have their moneys.
     
    Here's my problem with the Ash/Satoshi not winning argument... He has won one, the battle frontier (He became the Battle frontier champ and just denied the opportunity to become frontier brain) But I guess that not being a Pokemon League it doesn't count as a win. Battle frontier also wasn't a one off thing, it was an entire season of pokemon, where he basically fought champion tier opponents and had to use all of his past pokemon... why don't people bring it up in discussions on Ash/Satoshi winning?

    But I guess the loses do out way the one win he had (And it's technically not a League so people dismiss it i guess.)

    Also I agree with all of your points @mew_nami (well except for ash/satoshi not wining.) I also find it frustrating that in the newer leagues, he doesn't bring out his old heavy hitters to have a much more balanced team like he used to in the past... man i would've loved to see a mega charizard x vs mega charizard y battle (Alans bond with his charizard really made me want to see that fight).
     
    I think people do in fact bring it up, and while I haven't watched the anime in a very, very long time (DP saga to be exact, and that was for a few episodes) some people have brought this up: Ash, in order to become a Pokemon master, has to first conquer the League of any region that shares a league with the games, then take on the Elite Four and Champion in a similar manner to the games, and then after that he can apparently fight in an even bigger conference and then he can become a Pokemon master. Becoming a Frontier Brain is no easy feat; going by the games they operate by much stricter rules and some of them even use legendaries, and they do use legendaries in the anime to my knowledge, and it's certainly a good mark for Ash in terms of accomplishments. But in the grand scheme of things it's still minor; he can't become a Pokemon Master by just becoming a Frontier Brain, so while a big accomplishment it's still inconsequential.

    As long as Ash never accomplishes those steps he hasn't accomplished his goal. The writers can afford to give him that win and Orange Islands and even other minor wins because in the end it doesn't affect anything; it wasn't what he set out to do and since he's a very determined individual (for some reason; guy's been doing this for a very long time now and keeps getting beat,) he won't stop until he accomplishes his dream. As long as they can keep him going too far they can keep using him and Pikachu for advertising as long as they wish, and that's apparently what they intend to do; keep knocking him back to square one with trainers endowed with plot armor and not letting him get anywhere big so he can keep traveling and keep trying again and keep showcasing the latest Pokemon because camping out in one region and doing some hardcore power leveling or finding a new thing to do in life is for sissies! :P

    Really the biggest issue is.. well... Ash isn't inexperienced anymore, and it's becoming more and more blatant that the writers intend on keeping him in the same feedback loop of losing a league, traveling to a new region, and trying again. They never intend on allowing him to get anywhere because they don't seem to be able to handle the idea of Ash actually getting anywhere and dealing with that, and since the primary reason for the anime's existence is to be one big commercial.... Ash is doomed to forever globe-trot, find new friends and Pokemon, try and fail at beating the League, and go to a new region while leaving these friends and Pokemon to the wayside, at least until the anime gets canceled finally and even then he probably won't ever achieve his goal.
     
    Last edited:
    Chiming in my own thoughts, I think it was a pathetic way to wrap up the Ash-Greninja story arc (if it doesn't get concluded in the Team Flare stuff that's going on). I love Ash and his Pokemon to death, and it really felt like he was going to make it all the way this time. Especially since most of the League is so rushed except for his fight with Sawyer and then Alan, of course. It was just so anti-climatic.

    A Poketuber I watched brought up a great point about the episode. Something along the lines of: "Greninja vs. Charizard was really disappointing maybe not only for the results, but for the fact that this is somewhere around the third time we've seen this fight. The latest time being where it looks like Greninja would win." Something like that. Greninja vs. Sceptile felt so much more satisfying to me than the last one, regardless of the results, I want to to say. But for all the build up and chance that it felt Ash could win, I really feel like they gave us the other result for no good reason.

    Sorry if I went a little off-topic. Honestly him losing is so frustrating to me. Like I said, I love Ash and his Pokemon so much, I just really felt that he shouldn't have lost.
     
    @mew_nani Yep I agree Battle frontier was never a league. It just never comes up in conversations sometimes which really bothers me. Also yes the Anime is just one big commercial and Satoshi/Ash will probably never achieve his goal, but the Kalos league loss itself (in my opinion) was written better than than his other losses so it wasn't such a big deal to me. The Alan and Satoshi fight where, Both trainers gave it their all, no luck, no legendary pokemon, no Charizard ignoring his trainor, no new pokemon we've never seen before(Well I guess Ash-Greninja), no Ash/Satoshi getting rekt by someone who became powerful out of no were... and in the end Satoshi lost with grace. I do think thought that they structured the Kalos League fights like this (Fast and quick, Really the longest fight in the League is the Finals) is so when the team flare arc concludes, Satoshi/Ash will be a the hero of Kalos. If they don't and still give that title to Alan... well that's probably when I finally rage :D

    @zeno101200 The fights in of itself was great bordering to epic as it stands on its own... So I agree, one of the problems is that Statoshi and Gekouga have jobbed to him like twice before the fight. As for the payoff for the whole Ash-Greninja thing, I don't think we'll get that until the conclusion of the Team Flare arc. I agree Greninja vs Sceptile felt much more satisfying cause it concluded Shota/Sawyers character arc which is great. The whole Satoshi Alan thing is still not over yet :D

    I can Just hope that the Team Flare Arc Ends with a Bang now... And a Satoshi vs Alan rematch just so Satoshi can at least win against him once. The team flare arc unlike the other series is the Climax of the whole saga so I do expect to get the payoff at the end of the arc so again, I can only hope that they wrap up the Kalos saga as well as possible (especially since XY shaped up to be one of my favorite sagas in the series.)

    If I don't make sense or I seem redundant in my replies please forgive me :D I wrote this Post on my phone... I'll edit it when I get home... XD
     
    Pretty much what mew_nani iterated. And what makes this particular loss even more of a sore issue compared to even Unova, despite Ash undeniably doing far better in Kalos than in Unova or Sinnoh is that, unlike with prior series, even Best Wishes, where they at least had the promise of a new Pokémon League around the time the next generation was announced, this time around Ash doesn't even have a HOPE of continuing his goal next series thanks in large part to Sun and Moon completely omitting the concept of Gym Battles and a Pokémon League, which showcases just how Ash losing the Kalos league this time around was extremely pointless even under a marketing standpoint. Had it been me writing the show, I'd have Ash win the Kalos League, and specifically use the rationale that, since there isn't even a Pokémon League for Ash to challenge in Alola, there's no reason NOT to have Ash win a league this time around. Besides, who said that Ash has to retire the second he beats the league? Don't forget, he still needs to fight the regional Elite 4/Champion before he can really qualify as at the very least a Champion Master.
     
    Everyone knows that, no matter how different the episode titles may seem from before at hinting at something new, the writers will continue using many of the same patterns used for the past 19 years over and over. That is one thing I'm certain will continue, including making Ash lose every single Conference and replacing Ash's traveling partners for every new region he goes to. They may break away from some patters for at least awhile, but not forever. I looked at the "Ash might win" rumors (and the associated PC Daily topic) with the full knowledge that they would be false.
     
    Otter Mii-kun said:
    Everyone knows that, no matter how different the episode titles may seem from before at hinting at something new, the writers will continue using many of the same patterns used for the past 19 years over and over. That is one thing I'm certain will continue, including making Ash lose every single Conference and replacing Ash's traveling partners for every new region he goes to. They may break away from some patters for at least awhile, but not forever. I looked at the "Ash might win" rumors (and the associated PC Daily topic) with the full knowledge that they would be false.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, but you would think they'd have Ash win just this once since Alola doesn't even HAVE Gyms at all (if they did have gyms, don't you think they'd shoot down that rumor by now? It's not like hiding the existence of gyms is going to be a surprise anyway). Had it been me writing the show, I'd have Ash win Kalos, and specifically cite as my reason the fact that Alola doesn't even have gyms or a league, so there wouldn't be a reason NOT to have Ash win (in other words, why not?). Besides, they could have at least had Ash challenge the Elite 4 and lose to continue the series.
     
    Looks like the announcement of Pokemon sun and moon (And the fact that there's no gym there) colored peoples expectations. The rumors of him winning and with the episode name itself trolling us, soured everyone's feelings on the end of the league itself...

    Ash/Satoshi losing again was magnified by all of this factors, making people think that the episode itself is bad. When you look at it on its own, this loss isn't as horrible as people make it out to be.

    Being a Pokemon Master (We assume he has to win it all) is Ash/Satoshi dream Right? Not just the Pokemon Champ of a specific region. If Ash/Satoshi really want to win at a league, he could just train up in that one region to be the best in that region. But no he doesn't stay in one place, he even boxes his much stronger pokemon. Ask the question why is that (Well The logical answer for that is they have to promote the next games Pokemon right? But that's Meta, that has no insight on Ash/Satoshi's character itself.) Why, does bench his pokemon? Because he want's to experience different Pokemon from the different regions, not only by catching every single pokemon but by battling them as well. Ash/Satoshi's goal is to be a Pokemon Master not Champion(This is just part of it).

    In the end he may become champion, he may not. With the new direction of the Pokemon games (when it comes to stories, and overall structure) I doubt that we'll see any Leagues any time soon. And you know that's ok for Ash/Satoshi because yes he wanted to win the league, but to him it's just another challenge to test his bonds with his pokemon, and how well they grew under his care as their Master/Partner.

    I'm pumped for the Sun and Moon Anime. I wan't to see Ash's/Satoshi's new challanges, adventures, and Pokemon. I think it's the new series is the best thing to happen to pokemon (finally shaking up the 20 year old formula) and I'd like to see where the Anime goes :D

    Sorry if my points where all over the place.
     
    Problem is, they actually GAVE a definition for what a Pokémon Master is way back in DP, or at least one of the steps to becoming it: He needs to not only beat a League, but also defeat the Elite 4 and Champion. Ash even said in the end of DP that he intends to become a Champion Master and that he'll continue on toward that goal. So no, there was absolutely no excuse to have him lose this time around, not even under a marketing standpoint. Otherwise, they would have had him win precisely because, since there's no leagues in Alola, why not?
     
    It does make sense that Ash/Satoshi would go to different regions rather than sticking to one until he's crowned champion there. There's obviously many different ones, each ones with different trainers and Pokemon. Some of the regions were meant more as detours rather than specific destinations, like the Orange Islands, but others had more serious leagues and competitions. It doesn't make total sense for him to reset his lineup each time, but he does have to show that he can train the Pokemon of each region instead of continuing to use the same ones he's had besides Pikachu.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.
    Back
    Top