Summer VGC Team (Dual Core Pledge)

[skyburial]

So I've got my current team worked out pretty well, and I've been reaching out to some of yous guys individually to bounce ideas around about the next thing on my docket. I thought we could consolidate here and chat about what needs work, point out any obvious holes, run calcs, and get some fresh opinions from folks who aren't privy yet. Lemme know what moves you.

I wanted to develop a Pledge-based team since Sejun Park (2014 World Champion) has been tearing it up this year with one, and as a result it's one of the hot things to do in VGC right now. I've also been kicking around the idea of a Dual FWG/Fantasy core. So the first 2 mons were obvious to me:

Sceptile@Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow/Lightningrod
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Nature: Timid
- Grass Pledge
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast/HP Ground
- Protect

Purdy standard Mega Sceptile, but with Grass Pledge as its STAB. I'm torn between HP Ground and Focus Miss, because one is difficult to breed onto stuff and the other... well it's Focus Miss, but it hits Mega Kang pretty well. Open to other ideas for the 3rd and 4th moves. I like it because it outspeeds Scarf Lando and soaks up Thunderbolts aimed at Empoleon, perfectly checks Rotom, and runs circles around almost anything in the meta.

Empoleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Defiant
252 HP/4 Atk/52 Def/68 SpA/132 SpD
Nature: Quiet
- Water Pledge
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Aqua Jet

I've been toying around with the EV's in my calcs, but so far it looks like this standard VGC set does some serious work. The Special Attack investment allows it to OHKO Megamence, Scarf Lando, and most Garchomp with Ice Beam. The defense lets it take an EQ from Max Attack Scarf Lando-T, and the rest of the EV's are dumped into HP and SpD. Empoleon is not the most common Defiant user so there is a surprise factor, and that makes for more powerful Aqua Jets. I like having bulky priority users on my team as well, it's definitely one of my things. And this is so nice:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 32-38 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO

68+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Sylveon: 92-110 (45.7 - 54.7%) -- 49.6% chance to 2HKO

Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Friend Guard
252 Hp/252 Def/4 SpA
Nature: Bold
- Follow Me!
- Moonblast
- Helping Hand
- Protect/Heal Pulse

I'm torn with this one. I want more reasons than "Angel Miranda kicks ass with his Clefairy" to run this thing, and so far, this sequence is the only real saving grace for Friend Guard I've found that sets it apart from Clefable:

(With Friend Guard)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Empoleon: 162-190 (84.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

68+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 128-152 (76.6 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 48-56 (28.7 - 33.5%) -- Miniscule chance to 3HKO

Otherwise, Clefable outshines in every regard. I'm curious to see what else y'all can find that Friend Guard would help with though.

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
252 SpA/252 Spd
Nature: Timid
- Sludge Bomb/Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

When Polar and I were originally chatting about the Sceptile/Empoleon lead, the two things that came up quickly were the penguin's vulnerabilities to Fighting and Ground types. Enter Gengar. Immune to Empoleon's biggest threats, hits like a truck, and fills in some holes with a killer support move pool. I decided to go with a second attacking move over Icy Wind, as my team already has 2 other forms of speed control in the swampy pledge marsh and Tailwind (see below). Which do you think I should go with? Does Gangu need Protect?

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
??? HP/252 Atk/??? Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Tailwind
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Protect

Not sure how I want to set the EV's on this yet. I know I want it for levitation, Tailwind setup, more priority, and Flare Blitz to complete my FWG core and take down Aegislash and stuff. I like the prospect of Lightningrod giving this guy Electric immunity. Might put a Passho berry on it if I make this a tanky set.

Terrakion @ Lum Berry (Life Orb?)
Ability: Justified
252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature: Jolly
- Rock Slide
- Rock Slide Close Combat
- Rock Slide Quick Guard
- Rock Slide Protect

So... yeah. Rock Slide. And an answer to Fake Out and other Kangaskhan stuff. Also pretty much just because Terrakion is dabes and it's hard to build teams without him.

Discuss?

 

[ScraggyTrainer]

The team looks really solid. A bit gimmicky, but very effective. I'd opt for hp ground on Sceptile if you can breed for it. Terrakion takes care of Kanga so that Sceptile won't have to. As for the Talonflame spread, max speed and attack is standard, but you can also run just 172 speed so that it outspeeds KAnga and dump the rest in hp. I'd go with max speed though, since Talonflame can't tank many hits, even with the extra hp

 

[skyburial]

I've tanked quite a few hits with my Talonflame, actually. It's got some nice resistances. I'll try both speed investments though, that 172 benchmark is exactly what I was looking for.

I guess I'll start looking for a breeder who's any good at HP breeding before this team rolls out, but you're right, HP Ground is totally sweet on Sceptile :|

And Pledges aren't really gimmicky because of the arena effects they bring to the table and 160 Base Power hits. Thanks Scraggy :D

 

[Nah]

What do you really need Hidden Power Ground for though? STAB Dragon Pulse does as much damage as a 2x super effective HP Ground does to Electric types, and while Focus Miss's accuracy is kinda lame it does do more damage to Steel types than HP Ground can in most cases. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting but it seems like a lot of breeding hassle for a move that doesn't do much more than other easier to obtain moves can do.

But I'm not seeing any major problems with the team so....

 

[skyburial]

What do you really need Hidden Power Ground for though? STAB Dragon Pulse does as much damage as a 2x super effective HP Ground does to Electric types, and while Focus Miss's accuracy is kinda lame it does do more damage to Steel types than HP Ground can in most cases. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting but it seems like a lot of breeding hassle for a move that doesn't do much more than other easier to obtain moves can do.

But I'm not seeing any major problems with the team so....

HP Ground takes some of the burden off of Empoleon to take out Heatran and Metagross, which otherwise would wall Sceptile, and the latter of which can take a Focus Miss to the face.

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 144-172 (86.2 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 38-48 (22.7 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

68+ SpA Empoleon Water Pledge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 54-64 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 70-84 (44.8 - 53.8%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO

In both of these scenarios, HP Ground does the same amount of damage with higher accuracy. And it can also hit Aegislash. I just hope I can find a breeder nice enough to help me out with getting it :S

Thanks for the thumbs up on the team Elsa :D

 

[ScraggyTrainer]

What do you really need Hidden Power Ground for though? STAB Dragon Pulse does as much damage as a 2x super effective HP Ground does to Electric types, and while Focus Miss's accuracy is kinda lame it does do more damage to Steel types than HP Ground can in most cases. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting but it seems like a lot of breeding hassle for a move that doesn't do much more than other easier to obtain moves can do.

But I'm not seeing any major problems with the team so....

HP Ground hits Heatran for 4x damage, hits Metagross supereffectively (is that a word?), and actualy hits Aegislash, which is very common and would otherwise wall Sceptile. Also it's just more reliable and I hate focus miss haha

... and you ninja'd me to the response

 

[Nah]

Aaaaaah I knew that there would be something I wasn't thinking of lol

 

[skyburial]

Clefable or Clefairy, folks? The question remains. Does the Friend Guard benefit warrant a minor loss in redirection potential? Also, Sludge Bomb or Dazzling Gleam on Gengar?

 

[skyburial]

Got to test out this team for the first time this weekend. Here are some things I'm considering:

Volcarona in place of Talonflame or Togekiss in place of Clefairy to consolidate redirection and speed control into a single bulky Pokemon. Right now I'm relying on Talon for both fire type coverage and support, and in my experience, making it bulkier would sacrifice the fire type coverage.

Consolidating into Togekiss would give me the opportunity to run a 3rd pledge user. I'm thinking about a variation on my defensive Infernape, which actually impressed me to no end when I brought it out for a Prism League challenge last week.

Consolidating into Volcarona would make for redirection that can handle Metagross.

Thoughts?

 

[rob_thijs]

Got to test out this team for the first time this weekend. Here are some things I'm considering:

Volcarona in place of Talonflame or Togekiss in place of Clefairy to consolidate redirection and speed control into a single bulky Pokemon. Right now I'm relying on Talon for both fire type coverage and support, and in my experience, making it bulkier would sacrifice the fire type coverage.

Consolidating into Togekiss would give me the opportunity to run a 3rd pledge user. I'm thinking about a variation on my defensive Infernape, which actually impressed me to no end when I brought it out for a Prism League challenge last week.

Consolidating into Volcarona would make for redirection that can handle Metagross.

Thoughts?

Defenisive Infernape? I've never seen Infernape take hits like a champ, I think Lucario as a Follow Me users was viable in certain situations but I don't think Infernape should be defensive at any time. Fake-Out with 2 attacks is the way to go with this bad boy. And his speed is superb only be outclassed by Raichu and Weaville as common Fake-Out users in VGC.

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Ability - Iron Fist / Blaze
Nature - Naive
Ev's - 116 Atk / 140 Spa / 252 Spe
- Fake Out
- Close Combat / Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave
- Fire Pledge / Overheat / Heat Wave / Flare Blitz
- Encore / Quick Guard / Will-o-Wisp / Taunt

You can go so many different approaches with Infernape. You can go a mixed attacker, all out Attack or only Special Attack. In my opinion I would go with Close Combat to get a OKO on Mega Kangashkan and normally I would go for either Overheat or Heat Wave but in your team you can check how Fire Pledge will work. 4th move is just a support move my move of choice is Encore. Encore is fast it disrupts and is annoying.

 

[Nah]

At this point I think that play testing will do more for you than theorymonning in here will. All the changes you're considering are viable options and it'll be easier to tell what's the optimal way to go through battle experience.

Also at this bit:

Also, Sludge Bomb or Dazzling Gleam on Gengar?

Sludge Bomb. Dazzling Gleam will be rather weak since it'll lack STAB and is a spread move (and it's only got like base 80 power or something). Sludge Bomb gives you and option outside of Empoleon's Flash Cannon to smash the oh-so-common Fairies with.

 

[skyburial]

At this point I think that play testing will do more for you than theorymonning in here will.

Agreed. I'll be hitting some of yous guys up for practice matches in the coming month or two.

 

[skyburial]

Hey guys I thought I'd update you all on the latest iteration of this team, since it was born in this thread.

I'm still making up my mind on whether I want to use Togekiss in place of Clefable.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Pledge
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Protect

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Grass Pledge
- Dragon Pulse
- HP Ground
- Protect

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 116 Atk / 140 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
- Fire Pledge
- Encore

Clefable @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Follow Me!
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Mamoswine @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield

... Whaddya think?

 

[Omicron]

mamo <3

Does Assault Vest mamo tank anything important, though?

 

[rob_thijs]

If you are going with Substitute Aegislash I would go with an Air Balloon though, especially when Landorus is so common with Scarf/Band it has to switch out. Also with Aegislash you mostly want to move last so a Quiet nature with 0 Spe IV's is preferred. Unless you want to move after your opponents mons inside Trick Room you can go with a Modest I think.

Also I think Taunt on Greninja is a mistake I would either give it Extrasensory or Dark Pulse or you will be walled by Venusaur (dunno if you pick up the KO though) or by Metagross (also I dunno if you want to stay in against that)

And what will the Mamoswine spread do? I use this spread 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe with a Jolly nature. 252 Atk to hit as hard as possible, 180 Spe to outspeed Jolly Breloom and KO it with Icicle Spear.

 

[skyburial]

mamo <3

Does Assault Vest mamo tank anything important, though?

Actually yes! Before I added Mamoswine, my team was struggling with Boltbeam, which is a pretty combo in battle spot. Mamo takes those hits in stride and hits back hard. I set the defense EV's to take an Iron Head from Life Orb Bisharp.

If you are going with Substitute Aegislash I would go with an Air Balloon though, especially when Landorus is so common with Scarf/Band it has to switch out. Also with Aegislash you mostly want to move last so a Quiet nature with 0 Spe IV's is preferred. Unless you want to move after your opponents mons inside Trick Room you can go with a Modest I think.

Also I think Taunt on Greninja is a mistake I would either give it Extrasensory or Dark Pulse or you will be walled by Venusaur (dunno if you pick up the KO though) or by Metagross (also I dunno if you want to stay in against that)

And what will the Mamoswine spread do? I use this spread 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe with a Jolly nature. 252 Atk to hit as hard as possible, 180 Spe to outspeed Jolly Breloom and KO it with Icicle Spear.

I use the 4 Speed EV's to outpace Sylveon and other Aegislash. If I double into them, they are toast. My response to Trick Room is to kill the Trick Room offender, Infernape out-fake outs Trick Room Fake Out users.

You might be right about Taunt. This set is not of my own design. I haven't been using Encore much so I am thinking of putting Taunt on my Nape.

See above for why I set my EVs as I did.

 

[rob_thijs]

Actually yes! Before I added Mamoswine, my team was struggling with Boltbeam, which is a pretty combo in battle spot. Mamo takes those hits in stride and hits back hard. I set the defense EV's to take an Iron Head from Life Orb Bisharp.



I use the 4 Speed EV's to outpace Sylveon and other Aegislash. If I double into them, they are toast. My response to Trick Room is to kill the Trick Room offender, Infernape out-fake outs Trick Room Fake Out users.

You might be right about Taunt. This set is not of my own design. I haven't been using Encore much so I am thinking of putting Taunt on my Nape.

See above for why I set my EVs as I did.

How is Mamoswine afraid of BoltBeam? He doesn't get effected by Electric type moves and he has Thick Fat for Ice type moves. Unless you get Tricked a Ring Target on you I don't think you have to be scared. (who the hell would even think about swapping a Ring Target on to someone) I think Assault Vest is not the item to go because of this:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 211-250 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 147-174 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 180-212 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

132 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 114-134 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 168-200 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Mamoswine: 31-37 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Mamoswine in Sun: 216-254 (99.5 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Greninja gets the OKO and the rest gets a 2HKO and since double targeting is a thing and the meta is Physical mostly I don't think Assault Vest is the item to go with. But if you have success with it who am I to judge you.

 

[skyburial]

How is Mamoswine afraid of BoltBeam? He doesn't get effected by Electric type moves and he has Thick Fat for Ice type moves. Unless you get Tricked a Ring Target on you I don't think you have to be scared. (who the hell would even think about swapping a Ring Target on to someone) I think Assault Vest is not the item to go because of this:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 211-250 (100.4 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 147-174 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 180-212 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

132 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 114-134 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mamoswine: 168-200 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Mamoswine: 31-37 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

Greninja gets the OKO and the rest gets a 2HKO and since double targeting is a thing and the meta is Physical mostly I don't think Assault Vest is the item to go with. But if you have success with it who am I to judge you.

It's not Mamo that is afraid of BoltBeam, the rest of my team can't stand it. I'm aware of the threats to the mon. It fills a hole in my team and gives it bulk in critical places. I specifically chose it because of Thick Fat's resilience to Ice typing.