Stealth rocks/other entry hazards

[2Fruit]

Entry hazards have been around for a long time. They're purpose is to rack up damage over time and wear down opponents. With Generation 6 came a buff to Defog, several new magic bouncers, and new threats to spinblockers like Mega Lopunny and Bisharp.

At the same time, I feel there is more reason to use entry hazards than ever before. Pokemon like Talonflame, Blaziken, and Pinsir, as well as some improved pokemon like volt turners(Raikou, Mega-Manectric) All rack up sizeable amounts of damage/poison, and Gen-6 added good/improved hazard setters such as Dragalge, Greninja, Klefki, and Clefable.

How do you feel about the role spikes, toxic spikes, and stealth rocks in competitive battling? Do you feel something about them should be changed/introduced? Is their role more important for some playstyles than others?

Am expecting mostly discussion on Smogon OU, but any format is fine.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Stealth Rock is needed on basically every team, no questions. If you dont use it you are basically handicapping yourself. It takes one turn to set up and hits everything in the game apart from Magic broke Guard users, the same amount of turns Defog takes to remove it.

Spikes and T-Spikes are different. This gen i feel they are more optional and extra and i feel you should ONLY use them if you have a spinblocker AND something to trap their Defogger or make them regret using it (Defiant and/or rocky helmet + rough skin clone for spin). Otherwise you are wasting your time and effort tbh. If you can meet the aforementioned checklist, you are going to ream teams easily. Its kind of amazing how many teams rely on stuff like Lati@s to Defog whom is absolute Pursuit bait. You can also trap Zapdos with Pursuit with stuff like CBTar. Wobbuffet, Gothitelle, Magnezone (more limited, basically just traps non SS Skarm) all work too.

Also an overlooked "entry hazard" this gen i feel is Future Sight/Doom Desire. With Double Switches and PHazing this can ruin counters and checks potentially with Stealth Rock up. Best part is they cant be removed. :D Their only downside is that they can be blocked by specially fat mons or use resists/immunities against them. Though you can use this to your advantage by grabbing an extra DD or w/e if they try and switch in a bad check or counter against you to block it so you can often overwhelm them this way.

Also anyone else think Defog is kind of well, a non skill rewarding move? I mean if i stack all the hazards against your team you deserve to get wasted and not just click Defog and all your **** plays and free turns you've give me are removed, as opposed to the past skill vs skill match up of Spinner VS Ghost. Ah well, such is this gen rewarding the lesser player.

Quoth the elf nevermore.

 

[Nah]

I don't exactly like Stealth Rock/entry hazards because I feel that it's somewhat restrictive to team building. SR is mandatory for every competitive Smorgen Singles team because it's that good, and like Elf said you're essentially handicapping yourself if you don't use it (cuz everyone uses it). Finding a Rocks setter to fit on your team isn't terribly difficult; a crapload of Pokemon can learn the move and there's a decent amount of diversity among the ones that do. The problem is in hazard control/removal.

You have 3 main ways to deal with entry hazards: Rapid Spin, Defog, and Magic Bounce. There is less than 20 fully evolved Pokemon that can actually learn Rapid Spin. But not all of them are exactly viable in your tier of choice and/or are only suited to certain team archetypes (Delibird is terrible, Forretress doesn't work well on offense teams, etc), so you have very few choices for your spinner. Defog has a lot more 'mons in general, but most of them are weak to SR (yes, I totes wanna deal with hazards by using a 'mon that's weak to them :| ) or even just not really any good. Or in the case of the Latis, Pursuit bait and they lose especially hard to Bisharp. Magic Bounce is only available to 5 pokes, 3 of which are megas, and it requires you to get them onto the field before they try to set up the rocks.

And since entry hazards are mandatory, hazard removal is also basically mandatory, but you have far fewer options to clear them away than you do to set them, and that makes it harder during the team building process.

The amount of damage you can get off of Stealth Rock is kind of ridiculous sometimes too. I mean really? Up to half your HP? Just for switching in? In a switching based meta? C'mon.

But it does have its positive effects so it's not like it's leaving the metagame anytime soon...

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Stealth Rock is a necessary evil, else QD Volcarona would be absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Anti]

Also anyone else think Defog is kind of well, a non skill rewarding move? I mean if i stack all the hazards against your team you deserve to get wasted and not just click Defog and all your **** plays and free turns you've give me are removed, as opposed to the past skill vs skill match up of Spinner VS Ghost. Ah well, such is this gen rewarding the lesser player.

i don't quite agree with this. i think in a lot of ways defog is adding balance to a ridiculously unbalanced mechanic. i don't think there is anything inherently skillful about "i just set down spikes, these definitely aren't going anywhere unless my opponent perfectly plays my rotom-a!" dpp ********. i like defog because it makes hazard stacking less of a no-brainer--you need to be more deliberate in choosing when to stack and in managing the opposing hazard control. i think it helps that most defoggers are passive and/or easily pursuit trapped. while i agree that the hazard game as a whole, even pre-defog ones, often do reward skill, i think that making them more manageable is a positive development. while i think there's something to your point that removing 4 free turns worth of hazards in 1 turn kinda smells like ********, the extra hazards are still applying pressure and forcing them to bring out their defogger, which is usually very easily exploited unless you're running a very passive stall--which have been bolstered by mega sableye.

also, i am intrigued by future sight/doom desire but their distribution is so poor. :/ rip