Pokemon; the downfall of postgame

[Squirtkipfan01]

Postgames have been a staple amongst pokemon games, the ability to continue pushing your teams through new challenges and content. Many games have had varying degrees of postgames but they really hit their stride on the DS. Platinum and co had the battle area and the battle frontier + contests. HG/SS had many daily events, gym rematches, battle frontier, safari zone, and a whole slew of legends to catch. BW was kinda meh on the postgame but bounced back in 2 with more dailies, legends, battle station, pokemon world tournaments, pokestar studio, musicals, the works. But then, the fall. The 3ds gave us gen 6 and 7 both with petty postgames. Both a "battle as long as you can" thing, some legends, and thats mostly it(OR/AS was slightly better). At first gen 8 continued the small postgames but the DLC upgraded it to decent. Gen 9 is the series postgame at its worse. Not even a battle tower or anything. A great main game but virtually no post. Game freak do alot wrong with the series but honestly the middling postgames is a big sticking point for me…

 

[budube]

SM had a very whatever/okay-ish postgame with the entire UB and Anabel thing too, and I think USUM is even better on that? Idk Ididn't play it.

In the end with the switch games it boils down to how much time they (don't) have to fully develop the games. SwSh DLC (at least IoA) really should've been part of the main game, and I don't think I have to explain how much SV speaks troubled/rushed development given all the performance issues it has; if GF even attempted to do some postgame, SV would've probably been borderline unplayable.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

SM had a very whatever/okay-ish postgame with the entire UB and Anabel thing too, and I think USUM is even better on that? Idk Ididn't play it.

In the end with the switch games it boils down to how much time they (don't) have to fully develop the games. SwSh DLC (at least IoA) really should've been part of the main game, and I don't think I have to explain how much SV speaks troubled/rushed development given all the performance issues it has; if GF even attempted to do some postgame, SV would've probably been borderline unplayable.

SM and USUM are basically the same postgame wise. As for all the Gen 8/9 rushing, you are right. One of those things where i know WHY, but it still upsets me. They just popped all their good postgames on the DS i guess lol

 

[Corveone]

Post-game is what starts after the credits roll, which in previous Pokémon games means: right after defeating the Elite Four and becoming champion.

In SV, however, you defeat the champion and you still have to defeat your rival, and the other mandatory trainers required to finish the three paths, so that you unlock the fourth path, and only after finishing the fourth path the game "ends". So, in that sense, SV kind of have more post-game content than it looks... had GF made the credits roll right after champion and the Hall of Fame as in previous games (seriously bruh where's my hall of fame, my team is mad at that), and the fourth story would have been considered post-game.

Besides, SV will likely get more post-game in the shape of DLC anyway, and more Pokémon I guess because the Pokédex ending at Koraidon & Miraidon feels weird. It's probably a good thing that it didn't get it yet because the games needed more development time and polish first and foremost, so more content on release would just have made things worse.

I'm not a big fan of post-game because it's usually a double-edged sword, sometimes it can make things worse. Especially when it means that a lot of stuff only becomes available in the post game and makes me think "dude, you could have made this part of the main game and make it better", so I believe that "post-game" serving as an excuse for the main games to hold back is a design flaw.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

Post-game is what starts after the credits roll, which in previous Pokémon games means: right after defeating the Elite Four and becoming champion.

In SV, however, you defeat the champion and you still have to defeat your rival, and the other mandatory trainers required to finish the three paths, so that you unlock the fourth path, and only after finishing the fourth path the game "ends". So, in that sense, SV kind of have more post-game content than it looks... had GF made the credits roll right after champion and the Hall of Fame as in previous games (seriously bruh where's my hall of fame, my team is mad at that), and the fourth story would have been considered post-game.

Besides, SV will likely get more post-game in the shape of DLC anyway, and more Pokémon I guess because the Pokédex ending at Koraidon & Miraidon feels weird. It's probably a good thing that it didn't get it yet because the games needed more development time and polish first and foremost, so more content on release would just have made things worse.

I'm not a big fan of post-game because it's usually a double-edged sword, sometimes it can make things worse. Especially when it means that a lot of stuff only becomes available in the post game and makes me think "dude, you could have made this part of the main game and make it better", so I believe that "post-game" serving as an excuse for the main games to hold back is a design flaw.

Alot of good points

1. With SV postgame i see as after all 4 routes are done. So all we have is gym rematches your probably higher level than already, tournaments, and then the 4 legends. DLC will definitely remedy this but at that point itll be like sword/shield; initially bad postgame to decent postgame

2. Definitely a double-edge sword on postgame exclusives, a matter of what you want to think. Personally i like having more to do rather than nothing, and am willing to out up with postgame exclusive stuff for it

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Regardless of whether or not Pokémon Scarlet and Violet is better off without more post-game content because of developmental issues, the truth of the matter is that Pokémon Scarlet and Violet still lacks meaningful post-game content. However, because of the vast open world and the ability to explore the region without roadblocks, Pokémon Scarlet and Violet does not need a robust post-game. Still, I am disappointed that Pokémon Scarlet and Violet failed to include battle facilities, forcing me to test certain strategies against random players in the Link Battle option before having the chance to perfect my game plan first. These games seemed to remove many things that were staples in previous games. Hopefully, the DLC can remedy this in the future because Pokémon Scarlet and Violet desperately needs it asap. Regardless, testing strategies and attempting to climb the ranks would always be my "post-game" if there is nothing else to do.

 

[Duck]

Whenever we talk about post-game I must bring back that Masuda quote

Q:We noticed ORAS had a lower difficulty level compared to previous Pokemon games. What bought you to this decision? Any chance that future games will have the possibility to adjust difficulty level as seen in Black and White 2?

A:What? How come you've already played the games? hearty laughter [the games were supposed to come out in Italy the day after the interview] We created a "balanced" game that was suited for our time and age, where everyone is very busy and young people have various means of entertainment. Using smartphones and other devices they can access a great number of games, so the time they dedicate to a single game is less than in the past. The player can choose to keep on playing after the main story and continue to the post-game, where the difficulty rises and there are much more difficult Trainers and challenges to overcome.

Q:Why wasn't the Battle Frontier in the remakes?

A:This question is connected with my previous answer. We didn't put the BF in ORAS for this very reason. Interviewer's note: In short he means that they didn't include the BF because only a very small part of the players would have fully appreciated and made use of this feature; nowadays players get bored and frustrated more easily and they aren't interested in things that are so demanding/challenging.

So basically, the official front facing stance of the BDFL of Pokémon is "post game is a kind of thing newer players don't really care about as a group", which in many ways is true. (And remember, that if you joined a Pokemon forum and are talking about Pokemon here, you're already an atypical fan. Your friend group is likely not representative of the Pokemon fanbase at large.)

There are caveats to this of course, this could be him saving face that BF didn't get out in time, but even if it is, I don't disagree with his point of view or that in a world with a thousand of entertainment options postgame matters a lot less.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

Whenever we talk about post-game I must bring back that Masuda quote



So basically, the official front facing stance of the BPFL of Pokémon is "post game is a kind of thing newer players don't really care about as a group", which in many ways is true. (And remember, that if you joined a Pokemon forum and are talking about Pokemon here, you're already an atypical fan. Your friend group is likely not representative of the Pokemon fanbase at large.)

There are caveats to this of course, this could be him saving face that BF didn't get out in time, but even if it is, I don't disagree with his point of view or that in a world with a thousand of entertainment options postgame matters a lot less.

I CAN see that being accurate, and i WANT to say that there are alot of people who say otherwise. But often i have to remind myself that truely, there are more people who dont care about this stuff then there are that do. Heck my sister didnt even start the postgame. Scarlet and violet couldve had SOMETHING though, but it was clearly rushed…

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Whenever we talk about post-game I must bring back that Masuda quote

So basically, the official front facing stance of the BDFL of Pokémon is "post game is a kind of thing newer players don't really care about as a group", which in many ways is true. (And remember, that if you joined a Pokemon forum and are talking about Pokemon here, you're already an atypical fan. Your friend group is likely not representative of the Pokemon fanbase at large.)

There are caveats to this of course, this could be him saving face that BF didn't get out in time, but even if it is, I don't disagree with his point of view or that in a world with a thousand of entertainment options postgame matters a lot less.

Yet, you provided no evidence to prove that a wide-reaching majority of the Pokémon fanbase wouldn't appreciate a post-game. That quote simply makes an assumption about what players would want based on people having other means of entertainment, but doesn't exactly provide evidence for what the fanbase as a whole truly thinks of the game's development. If you ask me, personally, it doesn't make much sense because plenty of other games, including RPGs of today, have a post game despite the many other forms of entertainment that people have access to today.

 

[Palamon]

Honestly, most Pokemon games have barely ever had a post-game, anyway. R/B/G/Y? There was virtually none. Just fight Mewtwo, and maybe rechallenge the Elite 4, that's all you could do. But most Pokemon Post games were just nothing. Like, maybe a Battle Tower, or something. Yes, G/S/C had Kanto, and Sinnoh had like... the Fight Zone that area and a very small story with Buck, but that's it. Most Pokemon games didn't really have much going on after, even B/W just had you find the Seven Sages to arrest them and that's it. Post-games have always felt like an after thought, really. I'm glad the later games have had a small story after the credits roll, but, really.

The Post-games have never really been "good" so there's no downfall.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

The Post-games have never really been "good" so there's no downfall.

Black/White 2 and HGSS would like a word with your never good comment, and even the likes of sword and shield have pretty decent postgames with the dlcs

 

[Duck]

Yet, you provided no evidence to prove that a wide-reaching majority of the Pokémon fanbase wouldn't appreciate a post-game.

I didn't because proving it was right wasn't the point. The point was proving that it's the reason. Even if it is just an unbased assumption that Masuda and the boomer-minded dinosaurs like myself have of young whippersnappers, that won't get off our gosh-darned lawns it doesn't really matter,

That quote simply makes an assumption about what players would want based on people having other means of entertainment, but doesn't exactly provide evidence for what the fanbase as a whole truly thinks of the game's development.

Because the thing of the Benevolent Dictator For Life approach to projects that the game dev industry traditionally likes is that it doesn't matter if the Dictator is wrong, if they want something they get that something.

If Masuda doesn't think post-game should be a priority it won't be a priority for as long as he's the game director.

Although for what it's worth, assuming TPC / GF has any modicum of business sense (they do) they likely tested that assumption in some way or another, among many others, before deciding it was reasonable enough to use.

Or, as I mentioned before, it was just time constraints that led them to not make postgame (since by definition, it's not necessary) and they lied to save face and they continued to keep hitting that same problem over and over.

Either way, as far as I'm aware the current stance of GF is the one I mentioned above. You're free to disagree with it, of course, but it seems that is the current reasoning and why we're not getting a lot of postgame.

 

[Corveone]

Not only most players don't do post-game, most players won't even know said post-game exists because they won't even finish the game to begin with: https://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/17/gdc-most-players-donat-finish-games

Many games, including highly popular and rated ones, are not even finished once by more than half of its players. Post-game expects players to finish the game, and keep playing after that, so even more unlikely.

Movies end when the story is over and you watch the credits. And for many players so do games. Pokémon games are presented as a journey marked by concrete goals: build a Pokémon team, travel the region and battle other trainers, defeat gym leaders to earn badges, crush the evil organizations' plans, defeat the league and become a champion.

Once you've achieved those established goals, you have officialy "beaten" the game... and for a lot of people, that's it, mission complete. The most important and exciting part of the experience is over, and whatever comes next might not seem as appealing or well presented, which can easily cause the motivation to continue playing to drop off, and players to move on and go play/do something else.

 

[Devalue]

Is not too bothered by lack of postgame, personally. Found a lot of it underwhelming. (Never played Black/White 2 or Heartgold/Soulsilver.) Places the most emphasis on main story, particularly for Pokemon (because of replays). Appreciated the Battle Maison, though, once upon a time. Wishes for other, newer players to be able to experience that too.

Sort of gave Scarlet/Violet more game than usual, in a sense, as mentioned by Corveone. Felt halfway between main story and postgame with the additional path.

Not only most players don't do post-game, most players won't even know said post-game exists because they won't even finish the game to begin with: https://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/17/gdc-most-players-donat-finish-games

Argues for higher numbers than presented in that article. Disregards the players that never or barely started up the game. Checked a few Steam achievements:

• Walking Dead. Season 1, Episode 1, Chapter 1: 83.5%. Season 1, Episode 1 complete: 62.8%. 62.8/83.5 = 75.2%
• Walking Dead. Season 1, Episode 5, Chapter 1: 41.7%. Season 1, Episode 5 complete: 40.1%. 40.1/41.7 = 96.2% (Considers this a bit tricky, overall, due to the episodic nature. May not have bought all the episodes.)
• Portal. Get Portal gun: 82.6%. Complete Portal: 53.8%. 53.8/82.6 = 65.1%
• Skyrim: Complete Unbound: 88.8%. Defeat the final boss: 31.5%. 31.5/88.8 = 35.5%
• Tales of Berseria. Escape prison island: 68.6%. Beat the game: 18.8%. 18.8/68.6 = 27.4%

Still not necessarily great numbers, but higher than in the article. Bets on game length, difficulty, and quality to be considerable factors. Notes Spelunky dropping off from Beat the Tutorial's 74.7% to Reach the Jungle's 41.3%.

(Cannot think of a good game for postgame numbers. Recalls Steam DLC-based achievements to be abysmal, though. Justifies those, nevertheless.)

 

[ForsetiMaster06]

Mind as well put my two cents into this discussion.

While I do think Postgame is important, I don't think a lacking one outright ruins a game. For example, the original Black and White had a pretty lackluster postgame, but I still consider them to be some of the better games in the series. That being said, the Scarlet and Violet postgame being nearly nonexistent is a little dissapointing, especially after the decently solid main story. In the past bad postgames were mostly made up by the third versions, but unfortrunatley I don't think Game Freak is going to do another one anytime soon (in fact, I might start a thread about that in the future).

By the way, HGSS did have the best postgame/optional content although the main story was just kinda meh.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

Mind as well put my two cents into this discussion.

While I do think Postgame is important, I don't think a lacking one outright ruins a game.

By the way, HGSS did have the best postgame/optional content although the main story was just kinda meh.

A postgame definitely doesnt make or break a game(i do like violet alot), but they are nice. Also yes HGSS have godly postgames

 

[Sweet Serenity]

Black/White 2 and HGSS would like a word with your never good comment, and even the likes of sword and shield have pretty decent postgames with the dlcs

When it comes to the post games in Pokémon, I am inclined to strongly agree with you. In my opinion, the post-game plays a huge part in what makes Pokémon games great. The first games, generation I, that took place in Kanto did not have much of a post-game, but this should be expected because the series began with these games. Series mainly add new features as more titles are released. The generation II games that took place in Johto had a great post game. Being able to return to Kanto and conquer the gyms again before taking on Red, the other game's protagonist, was a great post game and established an identity for generation II. I honestly don't remember generation III that much because I only played it once a long time ago, but I do recall generation III having excellent battle facility features for the post game. As for generation IV, I don't remember the post-game for Diamond, Pearl, and Plantium too well. If you can recall them, please refresh my memory. I personally wasn't a fan of Sinnoh, so I just wanted to finish the game quickly as possible, considering that I hated the HM slavery and fog.

However, HeartGold and SoulSilver definitely had an amazing post-game as you said. They expanded on the already great post-game that existed in the second generation. Generation V, especially the second games, Pokémon Black 2 and White 2, had great post-games as well, as well as great battle facilities. Along with the generation II remakes, I must say that I loved these games for their post-game content as well. The games that took place in Kalos also had a great post game in my opinion. The story with Looker and the homeless girl Emma was very emotionally moving for me and I enjoyed it a lot. Generation 7, the games that took place in Alola, had great post games. The first games, Sun and Moon, had fun quests where you track the Ultra Beasts for Looker. The generation III remakes, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire had great post games too. You can't tell me that you didn't have fun soaring through the sky and hunting those legendaries from previous games. I know I did! Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon had you fight Team (Rainbow) Rocket again for old times sake during the post-game.

This time, they took over Festival Plaza, and brought along every other villain team that ever existed in the series with them. The bosses of each villain team had their game's box legendary on their teams and Giovanni had Mega Mewtwo. It was super lit. I loved having the chance to beat them all again and face the legendaries, especially Ghetsis again. Good times. Of course, generation 8, the Galar games, brought us the storyline with the weird hair brothers, which I thought was weak to be honest, but I loved the DLC. With that being said, I strongly agree with you. Post-game content is a big part of Pokémon. However, I don't think it is experiencing a downfall, so to speak. If anything, the developers are simply using DLC as a post-game and using it as a cash cow these days instead of content that should already be included in the game. In my opinion, Scarlet and Violet could definitely use some more post-game content and I hope it's coming soon.

 

[Megan]

I think I've stopped caring about postgame after ORAS. It's never really been of much importance for me, anyway. Training in the Secret Dungeon in gen 1 or training in Mt Silver in gen 2 was enough for me way back when.

Instead I've always enjoyed the approach of a game opening up right before the end. I could do whatever I liked and when I felt ready I could go through the final stretch and when the credits finally roll it's time to put the game down. The "postgame" in that sense still served the main story and kinda gave a point to the activities other than "do whatever you want".
But I've also done basically everything that people usually consider postgame and don't feel the need to repeat any of that. Be that completing the Pokedex, breeding, shiny hunting, challenges, ingame battles, competitive, etc.

 

[Corveone]

By the way, HGSS did have the best postgame/optional content although the main story was just kinda meh.

Because Kanto, ironically, is part of what kept Johto away from being better than it could have been.

You get lackluster gyms, and a lackluster league at hilariously low levels at which many Pokémon won't even learn good moves. Level curve in general is considered the worst in the franchise, as players get stuck battling boring low level trainers for too long, all for the sake of ending Johto at lower levels without cutting its length, because there's a second region to visit afterwards.

Espeon, for example, won't get a better STAB than Psybeam, because it learned Psychic at level 64 and the Psychic TM is in post-game, resulting in this, and many other Pokémon, being forced to end up with a poor moveset if you chose them for your Johto playthrough. They even locked some evolution stones behind post-game.

So, without Kanto, Johto was basically half game. Had it been a full-fledged journey in a single region, and it would have been shorter but at the end a more solid experience with less padding and a better pace.

 

[Duck]

It's less that Johto had a great post game and more Johto was built for the post game.

At the time, Game Freak thought "oh, we're doing a sequel and ending the franchise, so let's go out with a high note". Pokemon then became even more massively popular and they decided to not kill the franchise after all.

Other things that might be of note:
- Emerald and its Battle Frontier was done after Ruby and Sapphire, which were flops (by Gen 1 and 2 standards, and even by Gen 4 standards)
- BW2 and its postgame were made after Black and White which are well liked enough now that enough time has passed but were absolutely hated at the time and are to this day the worst selling non-remake / third-version / port mainline Pokemon games*.

* second worst selling if you count Legends Arceus as a mainline Pokemon game.