2nd Gen Need a different Elite Four?

[curiousnathan]

Do you think it was a lazy move for Kanto and Johto to share (mostly) the same Elite Four? Would you have preferred separate Pokémon Leagues or do you like the charm of having two regions share the same Pokémon League?

 

[illumine]

You wouldn't necessarily have called it 'charming,' but including a further Elite 4 would have probably undermined the unity of the game somewhat and not allowed the Kanto region to stand out in itself as much, or as part of the same quest. Of course, from Kanto one was, at least for the game, supposed to proceed near-immediately to Mt. Silver to find Red, who would then say nothing and initiate a battle (albeit with a team which is really a bit poor). This seems decent.

Perhaps more relevant is if the entrance to Mt. Silver shouldn't just involve another approach to the Elite 4 area, as the Elite 4 have by this point probably come to represent something somewhat stale and left behind (and after having beaten them, should returning for a re-match really be a plot point?), and making it clear that they're still getting pushed after the Kanto area is completed makes the whole thing seem a bit tired. They wanted Kanto to be part of the game, though, presumably, rather than a separate adventure included for some reason, so this might have influenced the choice. You're supposed to be continuing on, not just starting anew artificially, which would hardly be particularly interesting by itself, insofar as the game is concerned. In addition, of course, taking the Kanto gyms in a distinct order would seem to imply that it isn't to be taken as a separate regional journey, as otherwise you might as well just include 'Pokémon Red and Blue' but easier as a tagged-on area after the first region.

 

[The Annoying Rollout]

Or perhaps you want a HARDER E4?Dark types and Poison back in Gen 2 have poor movesets.I think Will and Bruno's teams were more balanced(though Will's team was weak).But you gotta admit,JOHTO NEEDS A BETTER E4.

 

[Mab]

Like you said, I like the charm of it.
I feel that from a battle standpoint, it wasn't really that similar; only one of the E4 members is actually the same as in Kanto, so it's not really a big deal in that sense.
I also like the irony of defeating the Kanto elite four and then going around and gradually beating Kanto's gym leaders.

 

[Sun]

Or perhaps you want a HARDER E4?Dark types and Poison back in Gen 2 have poor movesets.I think Will and Bruno's teams were more balanced(though Will's team was weak).But you gotta admit,JOHTO NEEDS A BETTER E4.

*Indigo Elite Four (or Indigo League). I apologize for the correction, but it really cringes me when I see the term 'Johto Elite Four' that's one of my PokePetpeeves.

And on the topic. We need a separate league OR either have only one league for all the core games, while making the familiar cities like Virdian inaccessible (You know, lame excuses like landslide or volcano eruption).

The reasons for lacking a separate league for Johto is most likely the memory capacity. Just look at what happened to Pewter Museum, Safari, disappearance of Cinnabar Island and the shrunken size of Celadon. I always imagine that, if they were to make a league for Johto, it should be located on top of Mt. Silver with Mt. Silver acting as the region's Victory Road (with more complicated puzzles of course). An another possible location is the west of Cianwood, which is later turned into a Safari in HGSS.

 

[The Annoying Rollout]

*Indigo Elite Four (or Indigo League). I apologize for the correction, but it really cringes me when I see the term 'Johto Elite Four' that's one of my PokePetpeeves.

And on the topic. We need a separate league OR either have only one league for all the core games, while making the familiar cities like Virdian inaccessible (You know, lame excuses like landslide or volcano eruption).

The reasons for lacking a separate league for Johto is most likely the memory capacity. Just look at what happened to Pewter Museum, Safari, disappearance of Cinnabar Island and the shrunken size of Celadon. I always imagine that, if they were to make a league for Johto, it should be located on top of Mt. Silver with Mt. Silver acting as the region's Victory Road (with more complicated puzzles of course). An another possible location is the west of Cianwood, which is later turned into a Safari in HGSS.

Thanks for the correction though.If Mt. Silver will act as a Victory Road then where can we put Red?Putting him in Mt. Silver would spoil anything IMO.

 

[Sun]

Thanks for the correction though.If Mt. Silver will act as a Victory Road then where can we put Red?Putting him in Mt. Silver would spoil anything

Red can return to Pallet Town to Indigo League and act as the strongest Trainers like most of the fans love (Following this logic, Indigo League can be only accessed after collecting all Kanto badges).

While the hypothetical Johto League can have Lance as our smod-I mean Champion. Naturally, Bruno will have to stay in Indigo and there's always a room for a new character to replace Bruno's current position, we already have Karen and Will, we can have one more. That logic of course applies to the lack of 4th Elite Four Member in Indigo League, due to Lance's duty as a Johto Champion.

 

[The Annoying Rollout]

Red can return to Pallet Town to Indigo League and act as the strongest Trainers like most of the fans love (Following this logic, Indigo League can be only accessed after collecting all Kanto badges).

While the hypothetical Johto League can have Lance as our smod-I mean Champion. Naturally, Bruno will have to stay in Indigo and there's always a room for a new character to replace Bruno's current position, we already have Karen and Will, we can have one more. That logic of course applies to the lack of 4th Elite Four Member in Indigo League, due to Lance's duty as a Johto Champion.

I Think things get complicated if we follow that Logic...

 

[BettyNewbie]

*Indigo Elite Four (or Indigo League). I apologize for the correction, but it really cringes me when I see the term 'Johto Elite Four' that's one of my PokePetpeeves.

Glad to see I'm not alone. There is NO such thing as a "Kanto Elite Four" or "Johto Elite Four." The regions very clearly share the same League.

The Gen 2 Elite Four was pretty bad. I have no idea why they decided to keep the pathetic Bruno instead of Lorelei, and Will and Koga were complete jokes. Only Karen saved it from being a complete failure like Hoenn.

I like Lance as a Champion (and love him as a character), but his team could've been better. Of course, he didn't exactly have all of the diversity in the world to choose from. :(

 

[Sun]

Glad to see I'm not alone. There is NO such thing as a "Kanto Elite Four" or "Johto Elite Four." The regions very clearly share the same League.

The Gen 2 Elite Four was pretty bad. I have no idea why they decided to keep the pathetic Bruno instead of Lorelei, and Will and Koga were complete jokes. Only Karen saved it from being a complete failure like Hoenn.

I like Lance as a Champion (and love him as a character), but his team could've been better. Of course, he didn't exactly have all of the diversity in the world to choose from. :(

I can see why was Bruno retained, it's most likely for Dark and Steel, which were new types at that time. A similar reason for Wikstrom, Drasna and Malva being part of the Kalos Elite Four. Having said that, it doesn't mean I'm supportive of Bruno being part of the Indigo League.

Imo, Bruno is the least special and the most boring Elite Four member in Gen I. Lorelei is the second toughest one as Special stat wasn't split back then and Blizzard had a nasty 90% Accuracy. Agatha, isn't that tough as her team can be slaughtered by any Psychic-type Pokemon and/or even the move Earthquake can easily take her down. But the old lady is memorable for at least three things: she has a temper (the first ever in-game character with this trait), she is a senior (first ever; possibly the oldest trainer in the entire franchise to date) and finally she was a rival of Oak's.

Lance's team in GSC was a bit of unfortunate, they could have had replace the two Dragonite with a Feraligatr and a Tyranitar, they aren't real dragons but they are quite tough and they look menacing enough, which is fitting for Lance, I mean Lance.

 

[BettyNewbie]

I can see why was Bruno retained, it's most likely for Dark and Steel, which were new types at that time. A similar reason for Wikstrom, Drasna and Malva being part of the Kalos Elite Four. Having said that, it doesn't mean I'm supportive of Bruno being part of the Indigo League.

I never thought of it that way, although it's very unlikely that you'd even have a Dark type for him to defeat by that point in the game (Umbreon was literally the only one available before Kanto), and none of the Steel types except Magneton and Steelix were even weak to Fighting (heck, Skarmory actually had a type advantage against him).

Imo, Bruno is the least special and the most boring Elite Four member in Gen I. Lorelei is the second toughest one as Special stat wasn't split back then and Blizzard had a nasty 90% Accuracy. Agatha, isn't that tough as her team can be slaughtered by any Psychic-type Pokemon and/or even the move Earthquake can easily take her down. But the old lady is memorable for at least three things: she has a temper (the first ever in-game character with this trait), she is a senior (first ever; possibly the oldest trainer in the entire franchise to date) and finally she was a rival of Oak's.

RBY kind of screwed up by making two of the E4 weak to what was the most broken and overpowered type at the time. Just grab an Alakazam, and you you've already beaten Bruno and Agatha. Grab a Starmie, and you've beaten all four of them.

GSC wasn't much better in that regard, even with Psychic being nerfed (and Starmie far less usable before the E4). Alakazam with the Elemental Punches wipes out all of them but Karen (including Lance) without hardly breaking a sweat.

Lance's team in GSC was a bit of unfortunate, they could have had replace the two Dragonite with a Feraligatr and a Tyranitar, they aren't real dragons but they are quite tough and they look menacing enough, which is fitting for Lance, I mean Lance.

Lance actually used Feraligatr and Tyranitar in Stadium 2, so there's a precedent. (Although, Karen really should be the one with Tyranitar, since it's Dark type and she's the last E4 member.) There's also Kingdra, which totally should've been on Lance's team for obvious reasons.

 

[moon]

I honestly really liked that they kept some members in the E4 and kept it at Indigo Plateau. Back then, you have to remember, there were only two regions. Johto was a continuation of Kanto, an expansion that made the world of pokemon feel larger (and better!!!)

Also, Johto was set some years after the Kanto events, so it brings about a bit of realism and continuity to have exhanged some E4 members and have Lance climbed to be the champion! It felt like seeing your old friends again, and they had actually lived lives of their own while you were living yours haha.

 

[MyUglyOne]

I always liked that the Indigo league had links that connected the Gen 1 era and the Gen 2 era, but the specific links that Game Freak used were kinda random. For example, of all the Elite 4 members in Gen 1 Bruno was probably the worst choice to have continue onto to Gen 2. Agatha would've been a much better choice. And I love that a Gen 1 Gym Leader was bumped to Elite Four status, but Koga was such a random pick for this role. I think LT or Blaine would have been a better choice. Lance being the new champion was pretty cool though.

 

[tranceking26]

Personally I found it acceptable, I still found them a challenge and then later on a good way to grind cash and EXP.

I don't see it as lazy.