Iron Fist or Guts

Howmander

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    I don't care about the "Standard" moveset, I don't care about what Smogon Says, I don't care how prevalent status moves may or may not be, nor do I care how Knock Off should be on every pokemon that can know it, all I want to know is, for Conkeldurr with the EXAMPLE moves Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch and Thunderpunch, which ability is netting the most Damage: Iron Fist (which boosts each move by 20%) or Guts with Flame Orb (or any status, which boosts it's overall attack by 50%, but that 50% is behind comparatively weaker moves) Thanks to anyone who can give a clear answer! I am just trying to decide which ability to go with as I will be breeding one today, and since one is hidden, I can't use an Ability Capsule to just change my mind later.

    I have been asking on multiple places, but way too many people think that 20% Iron fist boost + Life Orb is the same as the 50% boost from Guts, even though they affect completely different things which is the whole reason I'm having such a hard time deciding on the ability that boost the actual power of an individual move or an ability that boost the stat powering said move.

    And because I've already replied to this numerous times today, even though I'm sure most people already know this, I'm tired of constantly going around in circles with people who say "Oh Iron Fist 20% plus Life orb is exactly the same as Guts 50%, so you just have to decide if that 30% is worth the HP loss" or whatever, so I'm preemptively saying that yes I have done my research: Ice punch (for example) gets a 20% boost to it's BP from Iron Fist, making it BP 90, but it's being powered by a Base STAT of 140

    So says Serebii, Bulbapedia, Smogon and Pokemon DB:

    https://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/ironfist.shtml
    https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Iron_Fist_(Ability)
    https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/abilities/iron_fist/
    https://pokemondb.net/ability/iron-fist

    Whereas, Guts still leaves Ice Punch as BP 75, but it's being powered by a stat of 210 (as Guts powers up the Attack stat, not AN attack, as noted by the capitalization, however way too many people think AN attack is being powered up by 50%, when it's actually the stat that Guts powers up)

    so says Serebii, Bulbapedia, Smogon and Pokemon DB

    https://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/guts.shtml
    https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Guts_(Ability)
    https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/abilities/guts/
    https://pokemondb.net/ability/guts

    SO, this great big huge post of links, paragraphs of rants (because I'm tired of going around in circles and not getting a clear answer) and barring all the other factors such as resistances and STAB, all boils down to a single question:

    which is flat out giving more damage on a punching move (AS AN EXAMPLE) Guts or Iron Fist? THANK YOU to anyone who knows for sure!
     
    Life Orb and Iron Fist makes punching moves do more damage than if Conkeldurr is burned with Guts and punches.

    Spoiler:


    It's a slight difference though.
     
    Nah said:
    Life Orb and Iron Fist makes punching moves do more damage than if Conkeldurr is burned with Guts and punches.

    Spoiler:


    It's a slight difference though.
    Click to expand...

    I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers, because you're just making note of the 252 EVs in attack, but I don't see the calculation number that makes note of the Attack Stat being 50% higher than the one powering Iron Fist. (granted, it's a wall of numbers so it could very well be staring me in the face) because Iron fist boost the move's power while Guts boosts the stat that powers the move, so you can't say 20% + life orb is the same as the Guts 50% because one powers the move directly while the other powers the stat that powers the move, you know what I mean?
     
    Howmander said:
    I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers, because you're just making note of the 252 EVs in attack, but I don't see the calculation number that makes note of the Attack Stat being 50% higher than the one powering Iron Fist. (granted, it's a wall of numbers so it could very well be staring me in the face) because Iron fist boost the move's power while Guts boosts the stat that powers the move, so you can't say 20% + life orb is the same as the Guts 50% because one powers the move directly while the other powers the stat that powers the move, you know what I mean?
    Click to expand...

    All damage calculations are done with this nice little link right here: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
     
    Yeah I suppose the calcs don't do a great job at making it known that it's accounting for Conkeldurr being burned in the Guts calcs, but it does. If you put in the stuff yourself on the calculator, you'll see that the damage is less when Conk has Guts but isn't burned compared to when it is burned and has Guts.
     
    Nah said:
    Yeah I suppose the calcs don't do a great job at making it known that it's accounting for Conkeldurr being burned in the Guts calcs, but it does. If you put in the stuff yourself on the calculator, you'll see that the damage is less when Conk has Guts but isn't burned compared to when it is burned and has Guts.
    Click to expand...

    Awesome, okay thanks for explaining that!
     
    I just want to mention, that damage itself isn't the main factor to decide which ability to use, but rather how you plan to inflict it. If you want something that hits hard right off the bat and you don't need to bother with opponents burning you, then you go with Sheer Force/Iron Fist. If you want something that can take a status move like Toxic (or you want to use a Flame/Toxic Orb) and you don't mind it doing less damage without a status infliction, you use Guts.
     
    R.F. said:
    I just want to mention, that damage itself isn't the main factor to decide which ability to use, but rather how you plan to inflict it. If you want something that hits hard right off the bat and you don't need to bother with opponents burning you, then you go with Sheer Force/Iron Fist. If you want something that can take a status move like Toxic (or you want to use a Flame/Toxic Orb) and you don't mind it doing less damage without a status infliction, you use Guts.
    Click to expand...

    Oh I know, I just wanted to know how much damage was actually being inflicted, because if one did universally lower damage than the other I would go with the other. Sort of the same principle behind deciding whether to run a physical Nidoking with Ice Punch or a Special Nidoking with Ice BEam completely different attacks powered by different things, so I just wanted to know which would be giving the most raw output before I decided how I wanted to run it.
     
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