Gym Leaders and how they are portrayed.

Geewithabee

Geewithabee

Mess with the Grookey, you get the bazookey.
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    If Pokemon really existed and Gyms were a thing as well, I believe the Gym Leaders would be way tough than they are portrayed in the games or the anime. If the criteria for leading a Gym means that you're the region's strongest Trainer when it comes to specializing in one specific Type, then they wouldn't be as easy to beat as they are in the games and TV show, where they just tend to scale in difficulty with where the story's main character is expected to be in strength by that time.

    Instead, they'd all be about equal in strength and difficulty, and they'd use more advanced tactics like changing the terrain, the weather, inflicting status conditions, swapping held items, or creating barriers to protect the team and provide them an advantage.
     
    Imagines gym leaders in the games picking teams based on the challenger. Aims to test them, not stomp them.

    Implies this with the Alola Elite Four. Matches your (intended) level and team size during their Grand Trial. Pulls out the stops for the Elite Four challenge.

    Supports this in the Pokemon Origins series too.
    Brock: "Have you got any badges?"
    Red: "Badges? No, I don't have any."
    Brock: "I see. Well then, I'll battle you with these two Pokemon." (Showed six Pokeballs.)

    Sees no reason for that to change in a real-life scenario.
     
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    If I recall correctly, there are a few instances in the franchise where certain leaders have been referred to as if they were factually stronger than others. I think that doesn't make much sense though.

    I prefer to think of Gym leaders as all very strong trainers at more or less the same level, because there's just no way to believe that a trainer became gym leader with a couple of level 12 Pokémon. They must have stronger Pokémon than that, they just adapt to the skill and levels of the trainer they're facing, because if they all went with their best team against trainers that have barely started their journey, then trainers wouldn't be able to get a single badge until pretty much the end of their journey.

    A gym leader's job isn't winning battles, it's having the experience and knowledge to determine each trainer's strength and put a fair test to challenge them at that point in their journey. It's basically like school exams, where your number of badges sort of reflects your degree.

    The games don't seem to make up their mind about how exactly gym works. We have nonsensical stuff like Lectro being called the strongest leader in Sinnoh, or when they tell you that Kanto's Fighting gym was dismantled because Sabrina won them with her Psychic Pokémon and took its place. Lol, I mean, if it worked like that, Gym leaders with type advantages over others would be taking over each other all the time.

    But then there are other games that make more sense, like in B2/W2, when Cheren talks about becoming a gym leader, he clearly states that he's not using his actual team of Pokémon he had during his trainer journey, he's just using a couple of weak Pokémon to battle a trainer who's trying to get his/her first badge.
     
    Yes, that's true. I just think they wouldn't be such pushovers as long as all you have to do is know about Type advantages. Even when all they're trying to do is test you, you'd think the test would be a little more difficult for most of these guys.

    It would be more believable if each Leader also had a battle tactic they were trying to make you aware of, teach you how to use, and teach you how to counter it as well.

    I understand why they're they way they are in the games and the show, I just don't think that's exactly how it would really be. They're built around one character following one specific path of travel, when really any Trainer from any hometown could take on the Gyms in whatever order they wanted to. I like the idea of the Leaders having set rosters based on how many Badges you come in with, but I still don't think they'd softball it to you like they do.
     
    Something that's interesting to me: In older generations, the gym leaders are depicted as fighting you with their strongest Pokemon. This is most obvious in Emerald, where the gym leader teams increase in strength with each rematch as they train to get better. In all the Hoenn games, Norman refuses to battle the player until you become stronger. Gold/Silver gives Janine a laughably under leveled team to emphasize her rookie status, and the dialogue suggests the Kanto gym leaders are just flat-out stronger than their Johto counterparts. These elements don't really make sense with the modern idea of gym leaders.

    The idea that gym leaders deliberately use weaker teams to give the player a handicap seems to start in generation 4, and is emphasized even further in generation 5.
     
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    drew.wilsford said:
    Yes, that's true. I just think they wouldn't be such pushovers as long as all you have to do is know about Type advantages. Even when all they're trying to do is test you, you'd think the test would be a little more difficult for most of these guys.

    It would be more believable if each Leader also had a battle tactic they were trying to make you aware of, teach you how to use, and teach you how to counter it as well.
    Click to expand...

    That's right, but the difficulty issue mostly comes from babysitting gameplay design.

    If I had to imagine gym battles in a "realistic" fashion, I'd asume they would be actually fair battles, with Set rules, no potions/revives, and both challenger and leader using the same number of Pokémon.

    Leaders could be made a lot harder by forcing competitive rules onto the player, giving leaders held items and better teams and strategies. But developers don't care, games are designed in a way to ensure that even players who know nothing about Pokémon can beat them. They also want to make sure that everyone can win using their favorites, even if said favorites suck as a team. Games even let you bypass a difficult battle by just overlevelling, and leaders won't scale accordingly.

    I agree that the concept of gym leaders feels a bit outdated. I think it would make more sense if leaders were based on a theme, a certain fighting style, or particular strategies, rather than just "I use Rock Pokémon because I love Rock Pokémon so I refuse to use anything else"
     
    Yeah we've been meeting a new batch of Leaders for so long now that there are just so many of them at this point, and when you really think about it, it's funny how they all babysit you on your way to the top, as you play the one character in the region who seems to actually know how to effectively use a team of various Types. It's hilarious just how bad all the other characters seem to be at Pokemon even though they've been around pretty much forever in their world.
     
    I guess the only way to make sense of it is to think of it like a business. The league creates jobs through gyms by hiring leaders and gym trainers. People in the region and tourists come for the league challenge and spend money in each town/city as they need supplies plus sometimes a place to stay. Gym leaders would be most likely provided Pokemon based on the skill level they should be at. I think of Cheren in B2W2. He already had a very powerful team by the end of Black/White to be part of the league he had to have appropriate leveled and skilled Pokemon for being the first gym leader. All the trainers that collect all eight badges are invited to face the elite four and champion. In the anime these battles are surrounded by stadiums of people. People would pay to get a ticket to go and the event would last a few days. Gym leaders aren't as strong as they could be because the league needs around the same amount of people every year as contenders to generate money. The more contenders the more days the competition can last which means more tickets sold/more people spending money/more money for the region. At least that's a more realistic version of it all if it was in real life.
     
    I don't know how I missed your reply. What a great response.
     
    Something I always found funny about Kanto: It has by far the worst group of gym leaders from an in-universe perspective.

    The Kanto gym leaders include a paranoid veteran who forces children to dig through trash to reach him, a psychic whose claim to fame is crushing a rival gym into retirement, a scientist who recruits burglars and hides the key to his gym in a dangerous abandoned mansion, and the head of the mob... Who has been on a sabbatical for who knows how long. And this is just looking at the games; they're even worse in other media like the anime and manga.

    I can't think of another region where the gym challenge is so dysfunctional. Kanto in general feels less utopian than other regions.
     
    In SwSh I think it was confirmed that the gym leaders scale their levels down to their opponent, which explains why some of them are so weak. So if need be, they can change their order around and use a different team to fit that order. Which is cool to know for lore purposes but that's it, really.

    What I do think would be cool (but won't happen) is to at least introduce a maximum level for gym battles and include some kind of field hazards. The rock gym leader could have permanent Steal Rock effect out, fire can have Sunny Day up, psychic can have Psychic Terrain up, etc. It would make things more interesting.

    BoulderSmolder said:
    Something I always found funny about Kanto: It has by far the worst group of gym leaders from an in-universe perspective.

    The Kanto gym leaders include a paranoid veteran who forces children to dig through trash to reach him, a psychic whose claim to fame is crushing a rival gym into retirement, a scientist who recruits burglars and hides the key to his gym in a dangerous abandoned mansion, and the head of the mob... Who has been on a sabbatical for who knows how long. And this is just looking at the games; they're even worse in other media like the anime and manga.

    I can't think of another region where the gym challenge is so dysfunctional. Kanto in general feels less utopian than other regions.
    Click to expand...

    Being the first region means they could have experimented all they wanted! Then Pokémon became popular all around the world and among kids, so they have standards they have to follow now. But while I am not too crazy for Kanto as a region, the gym leaders and their lore/personalities have always been really interesting for these reasons haha. They stand out.
     
    Spoiler:


    Brock IRL: Do you have any badges?
    Red: No, I don't have any.
    Brock: he .. he... STEELIX, LUDICOLO I CHOOSE YOU! Get Rekt
     
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