Brightpowder and Double Team

[krazyhoundoom]

I got this idea from another thread, but it didn't explain why it was banned (and it was in the moveset and team rating section, and I didn't want to go off topic on someone's thread).

I know that it makes hitting impossible, but why banned, if both are a legit move and a legit item. Would that be a stragety?

Like is it banned from what? Battling or those official battles....I know that on wifi, someone would just turn their game off if they run into that, but there are ways around it...100% accuracy moves.

Like if there are other banned combinations, tell me, because I am completly aware of them, plus it is interesting to know.

 

[PKDante]

This is something I've been considering for a while,

I personally like things like double team and bright powder, I know they're hax items and can be frustrating but at the same time the can be fun, it adds more tension when you're thinking "am I going to hit or not?"

There are several arguments against but the two I seem to see most frequently are:

1, It's not strategically viable, meaning it takes quite a few turns to build evasion to a decent level (6 double teams to make an incoming attack have a 33% chance of hitting I think) anyway, if someone wants to use it then let them!

2, The hax element, anything chance related seems to infuriate a lot of players, but I think most battle rules make it a bit too boring what with the strict damage clause etc.. I know it can make the battle time consuming but the victory is all the more satisfying if you win after a drawn out battle!

In 3rd gen practically every team packed a blissey and so everyone needed a blissey counter, there are moves that can't miss therefore why can't most teams have an "evasion counter"?

My view is the effect of chance makes it more exciting, it can be really annoying if you do everything right and lose anyway, but it is only a game and it's meant to be enjoyed.

 

[Haza]

I had a problem with this months back but as you have a team that dont run these moves and you run into some rule breaker who does its quite annoying and unfair.

Also almost every pokemon can learn it so just imagine a bulky ass Gyrados using Dragon Dance then Double team. It has plenty of health to get that decent amount of DTs in

 

[PKDante]

After one DT in most cases you'd still take it down without missing unless you don't have a counter in which case you're boned anyway! that's my point about making it exciting though, the outcome is a bit more unpredictable.

As an afterthought Having DD and DT would only limit the gyarados to 2 attacking moves so it would limit it's type coverage.

 

[Arsibiyez]

Double Team and Brightpowder are not "banned", per se, but majority of the people who have gone online to battle competitively (Shoddy Battle or WiFi) find that it takes away the element of strategy.


They've gotten used to the fact that evasion is something that you cannot counter, as most, if not all of the always-hit attacks only have a Base Power of 60, which is far from impressive. And it's not like you're really going to waste a move slot on your Pokemon to include Odor Sleuth, Foresight, Miracle Eye, or Sweet Scent just to make sure that Double Teamers can still get hit. Spiker-(P)Hazers have an edge over Double Teamers, thank goodness.


And, contrary to what has been said, evasion just makes the battle a whole lot more boring. Imagine if both sides were to exploit Double Team. You could reach Turn #100 and still not be able to KO a single Pokemon. And if that's not bad enough, eventually, both sides could be forced to use Struggle, and neither one would hit either. And even if it did, the number of turns that go by without any action would result in both Pokemon getting fully healed by Leftovers, which is the most widely used hold item anywhere, or both players get pissed and switch to another Pokemon, only to repeat the same process again. Is it really that worth it? I'd prepare a eulogy for your DS Battery.


Above all else, evasion is cheap. Noobs can win with help from evasion. I mean, it's like a Spore-LockOn-Sheer Cold Smeargle. Totally noobish, totally cheap, and yet, very, very effective. Way too effective. You're going to fill in that last spot with Double Team? Nobody's going to battle you, not unless they're sporting a team of fully EV trained Adamant Machamps with No Guard and Choice Bands for Mach Punching.

 

[Haza]

Im sure Double Team is not standard play.

 

[El Gofre]

Double Team and Brightpowder are not "banned".

Actually they are banned in competetive play, under the Hax and Item clauses which are used in literally every competetive situations. But yes, your reasoning is right in that it eliminates strategy.

 

[Arsibiyez]

I meant for WiFi battles... Not "banned" since they do not have such "rules" and "clauses" like in Shoddy. o_o


Should've cleared that up sooner. Sorry. :D

 

[El Gofre]

I meant for WiFi battles... Not "banned" since they do not have such "rules" and "clauses" like in Shoddy. o_o


Should've cleared that up sooner. Sorry. :D

Competetive wifi situations (Eg the PC wifi tourney stickie here) also abide by clauses ect, they just arent coded into the game. The bans are still present in competetive situations though.

 

[Arsibiyez]

Competetive wifi situations (Eg the PC wifi tourney stickie here) also abide by clauses ect, they just arent coded into the game.

This was my point. <.<
The game itself does not ban it, only the people who participate in the battles do.


As I'm sure there are a number of players who do not understand the clauses, such as the one who started this thread, this is not banned to them. They can use it amongst themselves and we can't do a thing about it. ~_~"

 

[sims796]

Exactly.

It is only a rule that we players have made. I agree with this rule wholeheartedly, and will defend it for all eternity, but it is still a player made rule.

The Battle Tower allows it, hell, they use it (I was beat by a cheap Toxic Dusclopes, & I hate Double Team), so it isn't a Nintendo made rule here. Sure, it's very nooby, but noobs use it, so...

 

[Haza]

Exactly.

It is only a rule that we players have made. I agree with this rule wholeheartedly, and will defend it for all eternity, but it is still a player made rule.

The Battle Tower allows it, hell, they use it (I was beat by a cheap Toxic Dusclopes, & I hate Double Team), so it isn't a Nintendo made rule here. Sure, it's very nooby, but noobs use it, so...

We cant use Battle Tower as an example because I was on my 43rd battle and was on the last pokemon and was cheated by a Fissure from Whiscash. We cant have no OHKO moves in standard can we?

 

[Arsibiyez]

Hello there, Sims.
Last I saw you, you were planning to quit PC. Glad to see you're still here. :D


Anyway, if evasion was to become part of standard play, people would start including anti-evasion moves (besides Haze) to almost all their Pokemon. Which is... not smart. (I can't say "stupid", can I?)

Either that or Machamp becomes the bane of all Double Teamers everywhere. Yey Machamp! Dynamic Punch that never misses!

 

[sims796]

? I don't get what you are saying. Battle Tower is a perfect example of moves made useable by Nintendo, yet haxy, & banned in compettitive play.

EDIT:Hey, I couldn't recognize you witout Volbeat! Come vist S&M moar often!

EDIT2:Yeah, he posted faster, wanna fite about it?

 

[Haza]

I was saying it was not a good example to compare as a reason to why it could be used on wifi because of moves like fissure and Sheer Cold

 

[sims796]

That proves my point even more, it really does. Moves like Fissure & Sheer cold are also banned, and they abuse it much on the Battle Tower. I thought you heard of OHKO clause. & even if they spammed OHKO moves, how does that disprove my point on how double Team & Brightpowder is haxy?

My point was, the Battle Tower, which follows Nintendo's "rules", allow Double Team & Bright Powder, meaning it isn't "banned", per sey. Still, that doesn't mean it is allowed -tolerated is a better word- in VS matches playing compettitive rules. Battle Tower using OHKO moves doesn't prove anyting against what I was saying, & isn't really related. If anything, it proves mah point. OHKO clause made by us players isn't used in the Hax Tower.

 

[LethalTexture]

This discussion belongs better in S&M, I feel.

*moves*

 

[Daniel A.]

I agree. I don't really understand either.

 

[Matt-O]

The reason it is banned is too many people would abuse it and cause a crapload of people to become tired of matches in which they get destroyed simply because their opponent was to cheap to fight fair and instead decided to dodge everything in sight. These Items do not add any strategic elements to the game, they add a high degree of pissed-offedness.

 

[Archer]

Exactly, it reduces the strategic element of the game.

Brightpowder, although is less effective and is actually not physically banned from Shoddy. It may be on the Smogon server, but it wasn't on the Official Server.

There have been recent debates on Smogon, regarding the possibility of removing the Evasion clause from play, but it has been pretty much dropped whenever suggested.

As for players not understanding the rules, this hardly stops it being a rule. Wifi doesn't ban anything, so you can hardly use that as an example.

If you want to debate this, then start a debate thread after having a Mod read over it.